(still another) Air Training Question

[bush]

Will having bombers run TRANSPORT missions behind my lines increase their experience? If yes, will it increase it more rapidly then if they were running a TRAINING ground attack mission? Only asking about experience - not a specific skill setting.

[Jorge_Stanbury]

missions will increase pilot experience, but using inexperienced, low skill pilots will also increase operational losses.. so this will not only be wasteful in supply and airframes, but also some of your pilots will die.

Training, in the other hand, won't kill a single pilot or destroy airframes. This is unrealistic, but this is how things are

[btd64]

Actually I have lost pilots and aircraft during training. Not many, but I does happen. Sorry Jorge. My 2¢....GP

[GetAssista]

Training xp gains slow down dramatically after 50, some real action is required.
Running supply transport between two nearby (1 hex) and highly developed airports (9 or 10) will have negligible operational losses. However you might want use those airgroups to train more skills to your bomber pilots, they need a lot. Like naval, or search. Only Allies 4E bombers can boast exclusive ground attack role, all other bombers end up multipurpose

[kbfchicago]

concur with both Jorge and GP....

- Juice is likely not worth the squeeze (losing bomber pilots & air frames on transport missions with no value)
- I have also seen pilot/air frame loss during training, I only set training to 90% (vs 100%) as a result and I seem to see little to no losses...NOTE: This is "anecdotal" information, I have run no sandbox or other tests proving or disproving this general observation.

Note my observation as well is you are wasting your time getting to +60 in general experience; too hard, takes too much time, brings too little value. You do want 60-70 in the hard skills (air-air, bombing, search, etc... depending on pilots specialty)

I do the the following to raise experience levels and get to the "second level" of training for pilots (2nd level being the harder to achieve 50-70 point range once a pilot hits that level in a dedicated training unit) in their designated skill area(s).

- Air defense: use ground attack training, you can get mid 60s (from high 40s-50s) in 30 days. (edited to add - set your altitude to 1000', fighters can also pick this up with straffing training at 100')
- Put them in service in a quite sector or defensive area sqnd - usually leave those units on; 50% mission, 40% training, 10% rest
- For the IJ, fly them in China for a few months.

Kevin

[Jorge_Stanbury]

I haven't noticed any losses while doing training... other than training on bases under attack and getting intercepted. I won't say impossible, just difficult.
Air transport in the other hand is a mission type that comes with significant losses... even with good experience, good skill pilots... you plan to use recruits in their low 30 transport skill... that won't end well

If you are stuck at 50 EXP, 70 primary skill and you still wish to increase experience: Simply change to another skill: bombers can learn low ground or naval bombing, then you will see again increases in experience

[crsutton]

Combat missions seem to increase experience the most. Routine ASW patrol and search patrols will do it also but at a slower pace-more if there is a lot of attacks during the patrol. Transport and any other mission will slowly increase exp as well. I left a lot of Soviet fighter units on about 20 escort and 20 training and a couple of years later they were at 70-70.

[geofflambert]

Naval Search will improve ASW, Search and Naval Attack as Search planes do all three if the opportunity arises, but go out twice as far as ASW patrols (but are less thorough). I don't worry much about putting relatively inexperienced crews in Naval Search squadrons. If they are not flying over enemy bases there will be little in the way of losses. As for ASW missions, consider shortening the range even further. If your base is at or near a choke point (say the strait between Honshu and Hokkaido) a squadron with an ASW range of 4 might better restrict its range to three or even two or one, and the searches will be more thorough and enemy subs will have to stay submerged to pass through (except at night). That's a good time to use search arcs as your targets will not linger once they get through the choke point (unless they do [;)]).

[jmalter]

When your Training bombers reach 50 EXP 70 GrdB, change them to Train at an alternate skill, NavS or Recon. They'll (slowly) gain add'l EXP, & will also gain useful Defn skill as they cross-train - faster than they would on an internal Transport mission, w/ less risk of ops-losses.

[jimh009]

For fighters, I've found what works well is training at 70%+ until experience reaches the low to mid-50's and air skill is 70. Then switch the fighter over to a CAP mission (even if the fighter is based on the West Coast or in japan) and set it to 30-40% CAP and 20% training. Doing this allows the experience level to climb surprisingly quickly.

I've had much less success with giving experience to bomber and transport pilots. Like with fighters, for bombers I'll train them with 80% or so training until they reach 50exp and have a 70 level ground attack level. But getting experience beyond that 50 level is difficult and achingly slow without actual combat missions. About the only thing I've tried that seems to halfway work is to put bombers on Naval Search Missions (set to 40% search and 20% train) from bases far away from any combat action. This does increase the experience level, but it does so very slowly and you do sustain losses along the way, too.

For transport pilots, just train to 50exp and 70 transport skill and then set them loose. Even running "normal" transport missions I've found the experience level changes surprisingly little.

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: jmalter

When your Training bombers reach 50 EXP 70 GrdB, change them to Train at an alternate skill, NavS or Recon. They'll (slowly) gain add'l EXP, & will also gain useful Defn skill as they cross-train - faster than they would on an internal Transport mission, w/ less risk of ops-losses.

If you go deep into the campaign as the Allies, you will find that bomber pilots will train too slow to have sufficient numbers. Your bomber units keep expanding and the crush for pilots is great. I found that I was training them up to about 45 exp and then just sending them into combat. By 1944 you are using bombers in such mass that the difference in lower skill levels has little effect on bombing missions. Just put them in the planes and let them go to work. By that time OP losses of planes and pilots do not mean much, and there is not enough time to train pilots to super high levels without holding a third of your bombers back for training. Better to put them over targets.

[IdahoNYer]

ORIGINAL: crsutton

ORIGINAL: jmalter

When your Training bombers reach 50 EXP 70 GrdB, change them to Train at an alternate skill, NavS or Recon. They'll (slowly) gain add'l EXP, & will also gain useful Defn skill as they cross-train - faster than they would on an internal Transport mission, w/ less risk of ops-losses.

If you go deep into the campaign as the Allies, you will find that bomber pilots will train too slow to have sufficient numbers. Your bomber units keep expanding and the crush for pilots is great. I found that I was training them up to about 45 exp and then just sending them into combat. By 1944 you are using bombers in such mass that the difference in lower skill levels has little effect on bombing missions. Just put them in the planes and let them go to work. By that time OP losses of planes and pilots do not mean much, and there is not enough time to train pilots to super high levels without holding a third of your bombers back for training. Better to put them over targets.

I fell into this shortage with the '42 upgrade from 8 to 12 Heavies and 12 to 16 Medium bombers. My stateside bomber pilot training program could train bomber pilot skills in ground and naval bombing, search and ASW, but overall experience would not climb above the low 40s. My solution was to "graduate" the fledgling bomber pilots into my restricted stateside P-39 squadrons and have them do LRCAP for a while. Within a few weeks, their experience was good to go!

[bomccarthy]

ORIGINAL: IdahoNYer

ORIGINAL: crsutton

ORIGINAL: jmalter

When your Training bombers reach 50 EXP 70 GrdB, change them to Train at an alternate skill, NavS or Recon. They'll (slowly) gain add'l EXP, & will also gain useful Defn skill as they cross-train - faster than they would on an internal Transport mission, w/ less risk of ops-losses.

If you go deep into the campaign as the Allies, you will find that bomber pilots will train too slow to have sufficient numbers. Your bomber units keep expanding and the crush for pilots is great. I found that I was training them up to about 45 exp and then just sending them into combat. By 1944 you are using bombers in such mass that the difference in lower skill levels has little effect on bombing missions. Just put them in the planes and let them go to work. By that time OP losses of planes and pilots do not mean much, and there is not enough time to train pilots to super high levels without holding a third of your bombers back for training. Better to put them over targets.

I fell into this shortage with the '42 upgrade from 8 to 12 Heavies and 12 to 16 Medium bombers. My stateside bomber pilot training program could train bomber pilot skills in ground and naval bombing, search and ASW, but overall experience would not climb above the low 40s. My solution was to "graduate" the fledgling bomber pilots into my restricted stateside P-39 squadrons and have them do LRCAP for a while. Within a few weeks, their experience was good to go!

Just wait 'til the Summer of '45, when the 22d Bomber Command arrives, then a couple of months later when the 8th AF arrives. They come with pilots, but if you're like me you'll also want to fill up the squadrons' reserve slots. I had no choice but to import replacements directly and train the squadrons for about a month stateside before sending them into the combat theater. And, because they weren't very experienced after a month's training, I lost some during the ferry process and many more in combat missions.

In addition to training replacements in the bomber units restricted stateside, I kept four B-25 squadrons in New Guinea through 1946, training replacements with missions over Rabaul and Kavieng, then cycling these pilots into the Reserve Pool. And I still have less than 200 bomber pilots in the Reserve Pool in March 1946.

[IdahoNYer]

ORIGINAL: bomccarthy

ORIGINAL: IdahoNYer

ORIGINAL: crsutton





If you go deep into the campaign as the Allies, you will find that bomber pilots will train too slow to have sufficient numbers. Your bomber units keep expanding and the crush for pilots is great. I found that I was training them up to about 45 exp and then just sending them into combat. By 1944 you are using bombers in such mass that the difference in lower skill levels has little effect on bombing missions. Just put them in the planes and let them go to work. By that time OP losses of planes and pilots do not mean much, and there is not enough time to train pilots to super high levels without holding a third of your bombers back for training. Better to put them over targets.

I fell into this shortage with the '42 upgrade from 8 to 12 Heavies and 12 to 16 Medium bombers. My stateside bomber pilot training program could train bomber pilot skills in ground and naval bombing, search and ASW, but overall experience would not climb above the low 40s. My solution was to "graduate" the fledgling bomber pilots into my restricted stateside P-39 squadrons and have them do LRCAP for a while. Within a few weeks, their experience was good to go!

Just wait 'til the Summer of '45, when the 22d Bomber Command arrives, then a couple of months later when the 8th AF arrives. They come with pilots, but if you're like me you'll also want to fill up the squadrons' reserve slots. I had no choice but to import replacements directly and train the squadrons for about a month stateside before sending them into the combat theater. And, because they weren't very experienced after a month's training, I lost some during the ferry process and many more in combat missions.

In addition to training replacements in the bomber units restricted stateside, I kept four B-25 squadrons in New Guinea through 1946, training replacements with missions over Rabaul and Kavieng, then cycling these pilots into the Reserve Pool. And I still have less than 200 bomber pilots in the Reserve Pool in March 1946.

I can't wait to have those kinds of problems to work out! In late '42, although the squadrons "expanded", for the most part, I don't have the planes to fill them out - replacements barely keep up with losses. So, although I'm short pilots, I really don't need a full complement of pilots to man a squadron. But having the squadrons full of experienced pilots sure helps fatigue and morale issues.

[NigelKentarus]

Speaking of air training questions, does anyone rotate pilots in and out of Soviet air groups or change their training to the extent that the US/Japan players do? I tend to put all of them at 100% training, max out their pilots, and then leave them be for the remainder. Does it matter? And does their predefined upgrade path matter? Thanks.

[rustysi]

ORIGINAL: NigelKentarus

Speaking of air training questions, does anyone rotate pilots in and out of Soviet air groups or change their training to the extent that the US/Japan players do? I tend to put all of them at 100% training, max out their pilots, and then leave them be for the remainder. Does it matter? And does their predefined upgrade path matter? Thanks.

I would say it only matters if the Soviets are activated, and I don't think many games get that far. Playing in a PBEM game I intend to stick it out 'til the end. Playing as Japan though I have no intention of 'poking the bear' before his game defined activation.

[bush]

Since the expansion of the bomber squadrons can wreak havoc on pilots and airframes might it not be better to NOT let the squadrons increase in size? Or maybe only certain squadrons? What about increasing the size of just the TRAINING squadrons? Many options here.

[bomccarthy]

ORIGINAL: rustysi

ORIGINAL: NigelKentarus

Speaking of air training questions, does anyone rotate pilots in and out of Soviet air groups or change their training to the extent that the US/Japan players do? I tend to put all of them at 100% training, max out their pilots, and then leave them be for the remainder. Does it matter? And does their predefined upgrade path matter? Thanks.

I would say it only matters if the Soviets are activated, and I don't think many games get that far. Playing in a PBEM game I intend to stick it out 'til the end. Playing as Japan though I have no intention of 'poking the bear' before his game defined activation.

In my GC against the Japanese AI, I put the Soviet air units on the same training regimen as the Western Allies, training up pilots in skills to about 70 and then rotating them to the Reserve pool and pulling in replacements for training. When the Soviets activated I was glad I did - while their skills may have been in the 70s, their experience was only in the 50s (for the most part). Flying against the AI's pilots, who now had experience levels of 60-80, my Soviet pilots fell like flies in the first couple of months and I needed plenty of trained guys in the Reserve pool to replace them.

[Lokasenna]

Was it because their Defense skill was low, from only having trained Air skill (and not Strafing also)?

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

Was it because their Defense skill was low, from only having trained Air skill (and not Strafing also)?

Could be just because the Soviet fighters are crap, at least the early war ones. And because most of the fighters are short-ranged, the bombers probably are unescorted on most missions.