A Japanese Debacle - Sqz (J) vs. fcharton (A)

[SqzMyLemon]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

Three hits out of 45 Vals, in the rain, is hardly nothing.

Well, I could counter that of course it had to be raining [:D]. That is luck pure and simple. I'm just waiting to have some good luck. As you always like to say, this is a naval game. If your navy and air force performs like shit, it's hardly fun to play.

[Mike McCreery]

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

It was recently pointed out to me by my DBB game opponent that the mod severely reduces naval aircraft accuracy figures from stock. I have not checked the editor, but that may be the source of some of your frustration. Also, AA effectiveness is higher everywhere in DBB. That I can attest to as Lokasenna and I are playing a stock game with the DBB AA and ASW code overlaid.

My last game using any mod. This isn't fun anymore. It's February of 1942 and I can't hit a damn thing.

In DBB you dont need CAP as an absolute cover the AA works just fin and as pointed out the bombers dont hit as much. It seems more realistic to me but everyone has their preferences hence the options screen on the front page of the game.

I started a game as the Japanese and played 21 days. I was not prepared and I did not have a good opening plan so things did not go well and I was very frustrated. It was embarassing but I asked to end the game because I simply was not having any fun playing.

If the game is going so badly that you are not having fun have you considered calling it off and restarting another one? It might be better than playing for 3 more years hating it all the way...

Not a complaint against you, feel free to keep venting.

[SqzMyLemon]

ORIGINAL: Wargmr

In DBB you dont need CAP as an absolute cover the AA works just fin and as pointed out the bombers dont hit as much. It seems more realistic to me but everyone has their preferences hence the options screen on the front page of the game.

I started a game as the Japanese and played 21 days. I was not prepared and I did not have a good opening plan so things did not go well and I was very frustrated. It was embarassing but I asked to end the game because I simply was not having any fun playing.

If the game is going so badly that you are not having fun have you considered calling it off and restarting another one? It might be better than playing for 3 more years hating it all the way...

Not a complaint against you, feel free to keep venting.

Well, I got a taste of how things have changed in the game with my last PBEM playing a DBB Lite scenario. I knew it was going to be a challenge tackling a full DBB scenario, but the changes in combat results just seem too extreme to me. I should have stayed away from DBB, it's my own fault. There are those that love the mod and some that don't. I am one player that does not like the mod, but Francois wanted a more 'realistic' game. I'll figure things out as I go, but it's not going to be easy or fun if better results don't start occurring for my efforts than they have to date.

That being said, I don't quit. I may bitch and moan more than most, or at least choose to post my complaints while others most likely just silently endure theirs. I post here so that I can get it out of my system and I take a lot of heat from others for doing so. I've been labelled as a poor sport as a result. I won't discuss my frustration with my opponent via e-mails, so this AAR allows me to vent here rather than make our correspondence awkward.

[Bullwinkle58]

Ask Lokasenna how much I whine in emails. [:)]

I hate losing ships. Planes not so much.

You dove about two decks' worth of DBs at three (3) heavy cruisers, which were maneuvering AND shooting back with three CA AA suites. The losses to AA influence aim as the pilots see their buddies go to join the ancestors. Three hits is good, even in stock. The CR doesn't show detail of the hits, and they were the smaller SAP bombs, but two hits with fire might mean a mission kill and a need to retire. He doesn't have a secure yard for a long, long way. Sydney sure isn't.

Not a terrible day's work.

Edit: forgot the color of Sydney's flag in your game. [:)]

[SqzMyLemon]

Looking at my situation, I'm afraid I tried a good strategy in the wrong scenario. Having come to the conclusion that my air strike capability is non-existent in this game, I'm going to have to withdraw from Australia to lock down Burma and the DEI. The reduced endurance of my ships in DBB is making this operation unfeasible due to the need to refuel constantly. The bunker capacity of so many ship classes has been reduced, especially my battleships, cruisers and PB's, that continuing operations is a mistake.

In fact, the entire plan was over ambitious for this scenario and will go down as both a tactical and strategic failure. The good news is I really don't care. I'll pack up and establish the historic perimeter, cede the initiative to Francois and hunker down to get pounded. I'm stretched too thin and if I'm going to offer a competitive game to Francois I have to change strategy and tactics. Once I get my shipping reorganized and refueled I will begin the evacuation of Australia. I think if I do this now I'll be ok, if not, Burma and the DEI will turn into a disaster.


You all know what Kenny says. Well, it's time to fold them and walk away.

[pontiouspilot]

I have played a lot of DBB and that result is unusual in my view...at least for KB. I just lost 2 CAs and a 3rd crippled to a similar sized attack.

[SqzMyLemon]

ORIGINAL: pontiouspilot

I have played a lot of DBB and that result is unusual in my view...at least for KB. I just lost 2 CAs and a 3rd crippled to a similar sized attack.

I have no idea what is normal or not in this game anymore. There have been so many changes and the effects on game play have been a rude awakening. All I know is I haven't scored a torpedo hit against an Allied surface combat vessel bigger than a destroyer since Pearl Harbor. I don't know how not to feel discouraged and frustrated by that fact alone.

[SqzMyLemon]

Thoughts:

The decision to pull out of Australia isn't a kneejerk reaction, but one I've been wrestling with for a few weeks. It's just straining my logistics too much. I don't have the strength to deal with Burma, Java, Philippines, Sumatra and Timor especially with most of my navy needed to secure my LOC to Australia. I also need to address Burma before it is further reinforced with more Allied units. Rangoon, Port Blair and the Burma Road can't be allowed to be fortified and strengthened further. To do that, I need the divisions currently at Singapore which are already earmarked to secure Palembang and Java. I can't close down Perth for at least another two months which will allow plenty of time for the Allies to reinforce Australia making further gains there almost impossible. Just too many objectives and not enough troops to do them all.

I just don't see a way of getting done what needs to be done, without pulling out of Australia.

[SqzMyLemon]

Feb. 1/42:

I forgot to mention a few things that occurred on the 1st.

In China, IJA 41st Division captured Hengyang.

In Sumatra, IJA 38th Division lands by amphibious assault against an undefended Tandjoengbalai. The division will capture the base on the 2nd and immediately march on Medan.

Japanese forces continue to land at Tarakan. Two more regiments will unload on the 3rd and the first assault will be launched on the 4th.

Feb. 2/42:

The Allied SCTF easily escapes KB and the three Japanese SCTF's sent to try and interdict it. The Allied cruisers were spotted near the Santa Cruz Islands.

I don't know what has changed with ground bombing, but my forces are constantly being knocked out of move mode while Allied forces, including just recently routed Australian and Chinese units, being able to outrun all pursuit even when my bombers are performing ground attack missions against them. This game feels so one-sided it's not even funny.

Other than those tidbits, the same Allied 4E's bomb me every day in China and suffer no losses to Oscar CAP. They just can't do anything against the heavy bombers. I won't have an answer to them until I get the Nick and Tojo.

Thoughts:

Once I can get enough surface combat assets back into the DEI, I will move against Palembang, Kendari and Ambon.

The plan in Australia is to capture and destroy the defenders at Brisbane first, then load up an amphibious TF and move against Port Moresby. Ground forces will move north along the coast and destroy what Australian forces that remain prior to evacuation.

[SqzMyLemon]

A note on production. Two engines advanced R&D over the last couple of days.

Ha-43 advanced to 8/45
Ha-45 advanced to 8/43

Supply in the Home Islands has grown by 59740 over the last 11 days. I've turned the corner in terms of no longer running a supply deficit due to industrial expansion and that provided for combat operations. I'm in the black for supply, now to address the fuel, oil and resources deficits.

[ny59giants]

Air attacks on warships - I usually figure on about 10% hits and maybe a good day when 15% get hits. You had weather against you, which doesn't help. I would have to watch the combat replay slowly to see how many of your Vals went after the DDs. I figure the best way to sink them is with other warships as very seldom do I get hits from DBs and almost never with a TB. I've had a reinforced KB in late 43, early 44 come after some Cleveland CLs and Fletchers without any CAP and only lose one CL. Hitting 32 knot plus warships is not easy (not many 'smart bombs' in 42). [:D]

[Encircled]

That being said, I don't quit. I may bitch and moan more than most, or at least choose to post my complaints while others most likely just silently endure theirs. I post here so that I can get it out of my system and I take a lot of heat from others for doing so. I've been labelled as a poor sport as a result. I won't discuss my frustration with my opponent via e-mails, so this AAR allows me to vent here rather than make our correspondence awkward.

Fair play for that! [:)]

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

I don't know what has changed with ground bombing, but my forces are constantly being knocked out of move mode while Allied forces, including just recently routed Australian and Chinese units, being able to outrun all pursuit even when my bombers are performing ground attack missions against them. This game feels so one-sided it's not even funny.

Could be two things. It's possible to march in Reserve mode, which gives most of the speed of Move but doesn't allow mode-knocking. Some players consider this an exploit. Or, in a stack, only some LCUs are knocked out of Move to Combat mode while others remain in Move. This happens to me almost every day in China in my DBB game. This is completely WAD.

[pontiouspilot]

Don't be rash on pulling out!! It may well have been a Bridge too Far but you may still force him into committing his CVs this year. If you can get him to do so, and eliminate them, then it will still be a victory. He may feel compelled to commit them if he senses you moving on Suva or environs. Without Suva regaining Australia would look daunting at this point.

[SqzMyLemon]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

Could be two things. It's possible to march in Reserve mode, which gives most of the speed of Move but doesn't allow mode-knocking. Some players consider this an exploit. Or, in a stack, only some LCUs are knocked out of Move to Combat mode while others remain in Move.

I'd forgotten about reserve mode. I'm sure this is why I can't catch his forces. Thanks.

[SqzMyLemon]

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

Air attacks on warships - I usually figure on about 10% hits and maybe a good day when 15% get hits. You had weather against you, which doesn't help. I would have to watch the combat replay slowly to see how many of your Vals went after the DDs. I figure the best way to sink them is with other warships as very seldom do I get hits from DBs and almost never with a TB. I've had a reinforced KB in late 43, early 44 come after some Cleveland CLs and Fletchers without any CAP and only lose one CL. Hitting 32 knot plus warships is not easy (not many 'smart bombs' in 42). [:D]

My hit percentage was 3%. Eight Kate's went after DD's, everything else concentrated against the cruisers.

[Yaab]

Let my repost a post from a DBB flak thread I started long time ago
tm.asp?m=3563689&mpage=1&key=

Here is the post:

[START OF POST]
Ok, I tested my theory in the Guadalcanal scenario. I formed a bait TF composed of CA Chokai and E Yunagi ,having in total 11 DP plus several 25mm guns, and provoked the Allied CV TF to attack me. I added a small LRCAP group over my TF, but the group never broke through the escorts in the following air raids.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Vella Lavella at 109,133

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid spotted at 19 NM, estimated altitude 16,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 7 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 6

Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 27
SBD-3 Dauntless x 13
TBF-1 Avenger x 12

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat: 1 destroyed

Japanese Ships
CA Chokai
E Yunagi

Aircraft Attacking:
10 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 4000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
12 x TBF-1 Avenger launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 22in Mk 13 Torpedo
3 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb

CAP engaged:
Tainan Ku S-1 with A6M2 Zero (6 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
6 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Raid is overhead



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Vella Lavella at 109,133

Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid spotted at 20 NM, estimated altitude 16,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 7 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 5

Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 33
SBD-3 Dauntless x 26

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat: 1 destroyed
SBD-3 Dauntless: 1 damaged

Japanese Ships
CA Chokai

Aircraft Attacking:
2 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 4000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
5 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
7 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
4 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
4 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 4000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
4 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb

CAP engaged:
Tainan Ku S-1 with A6M2 Zero (5 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
5 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Raid is overhead

So I successfully fended off 25 and 26 bombers without a single bomb hit on my ships.

Now, I counted all DP and AA gun mounts on both ships. CA Chokai has 10 mounts, E Yunagi has 14 mounts. I do not know how the game code handles this, but those attacks probably ment the 25-26 aircraft were not enough to swamp my AA defences.In the ideal setup each such aircraft would face one dedicated AA mount firing at it.

Anyway, DP ammo is dangerously low on both ships after the two attacks.
[END OF POST]

I suggest you open Tracker and count all big DP guns on the attacked CAs and DDs. This may shed some light on the dismal result of yours.

Hope it helps.

[SqzMyLemon]

I appreciate these comments, but I will say this. If it's so hard to hit surface ships and if numbers of attacking aircraft is so crucial, why then does the game code only send half of KB's aircraft on the strike? Why does only 1/3 or 1/2 of my LBA aircraft fly instead of the 50 or 60 that could?

It seems to me the decision to break up air combat into smaller packages in the official updates has thrown things completely out of whack, if mass matters as you all say. I'm at the mercy of an AI that is breaking up my raids when you all say I need to attack with more aircraft. How can I possible do that when it's completely out of my hands how many aircraft launch?

[FeurerKrieg]

I don't think anyone is saying that you are doing anything wrong, just that air strikes are tougher these days.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

Could be two things. It's possible to march in Reserve mode, which gives most of the speed of Move but doesn't allow mode-knocking. Some players consider this an exploit. Or, in a stack, only some LCUs are knocked out of Move to Combat mode while others remain in Move.

I'd forgotten about reserve mode. I'm sure this is why I can't catch his forces. Thanks.

Keep bombing them, etc. If you wear them out, they won't move as fast. You only need to slow him down 1 day to get an attack in.