Are 1st turn German advantages working?

[willgamer]

V103.b; Turn 1; Normal difficulty; options all off (except for past history).

I replayed this attack 10 times. SU held fast, as below, 9/10 times.

I don't see any reduction in SU defense strength or entrenchment level.

This doesn't seem consistent with the Early Soviet Penalties shown in the manual on p. 125.

Plus, I need help understanding how to confirm combat boni/malus in the detail presentation below.

H E L P! [&:]

[RandomAttack]

In another thread, Vic insists this is working properly. To really see how the Russian bonus are determined you have to play with FOW off-- there will be a lot more stuff in the "Defender Score Mods" box. That's what I did, and the Russians were getting their full entrenchment bonus-- which seemed a major deal to me. If I understood Vic's explanation properly, it was that the entrenchment penalty described in the manual only applies to a human Russian player. That's not how I read the manual, and not sure I understand the rationale, but I'm not the game designer. Also, the "negative defense value" only gets applied when the Russian *defender* is COUNTERATTACKING.

There was a small (15%) bonus the Russians were getting that the Germans were supposed to get(??) as an offset of the full entrenchment point deal that was fixed in 1.03B. On a tangent, I could have SWORN that the 15% bonus was showing up for the German during my first test run of the new version, but now it doesn't seem to be there. I might have just been seeing things.

To be honest, I'd still like to see the entrenchment penalty be applied as described in the manual-- it's a HUGE multiplier (mostly 100%) that mostly offsets any German bonuses all by itself.

[Philippeatbay]

You have less than 2:1 odds.

The defender has more than one unit.

The defender is not so shot-up by previous battles that his troops are about to run screaming for the rear.

The defender's troops are in really good shape.

The defender is not being attacked by armor.

The defender is only being attacked from one direction so he knows exactly where to lay down his defensive barrage.

The defender is well dug-in and in good natural defensive terrain.

Why are you surprised by the outcome ?

[WingedIncubus]

You forgot, he was also slightly overstacked. [:'(]

OP, you did it wrong. There is no bug, you simply got into it bull-headed and it failed.

Even on T2, Soviets are far from being some pushovers that will melt away because of your bad breath. Yes, they have penalties, yes they are vulnerable to brutal, overwheming force, but they aren't walkovers either. Just bashing forward with your Divisions, without having tactics nor battle ratios in mind, will lead you to situations like this where the Soviets will stand their ground and you'll lose time.

If I had been you, I would have instead attacked that 28th Tank Division and 90th Rifle Division with Divisions of 18th Army and the 4th Panzergruppe Infantry Division in support. Those two seem to have out of HQ range and thus vulnerable. The aim would be to surround those Divisions who are in better position and flank it around from at least 3 sides, increasing your stack limit to 300, or pocket them outright.

[willgamer]

ORIGINAL: Philippe at bay

You have less than 2:1 odds.

It's about 1.5:1 which, on turn 1, should equate to about 3:1.

The defender has more than one unit.

True; the attacker has 3.

The defender is not so shot-up by previous battles that his troops are about to run screaming for the rear.

His morale is average for SU.

The defender's troops are in really good shape.

So are the attackers.

The defender is not being attacked by armor.

Thank goodness; armor is sharply reduced into a woods.

The defender is only being attacked from one direction so he knows exactly where to lay down his defensive barrage.

I also tried with attacking by moving 1 unit to the adjacent hex; no change.

The defender is well dug-in and in good natural defensive terrain.

Yes, and I don't understand. This is supposed to be first turn surprise.

Why are you surprised by the outcome ?

Couple of reasons- IIRC, attacks like this succeeded more often in 1.01; the entrenchments are near maximum contrary to turn 1 surprise; but mostly, I am completely unable to confirm boni/malus in the results.

[willgamer]

ORIGINAL: Drakken

You forgot, he was also slightly overstacked. [:'(]

Ha-ha! [:D]

OP, you did it wrong. There is no bug, you simply got into it bull-headed and it failed.

Actually, I do resemble that remark, but in this case I was messing around to get an impression of 1.03b.

Even on T2, Soviets are far from being some pushovers that will melt away because of your bad breath. Yes, they have penalties, yes they are vulnerable to brutal, overwheming force, but they aren't walkovers either. Just bashing forward with your Divisions, without having tactics nor battle ratios in mind, will lead you to situations like this where the Soviets will stand their ground and you'll lose time.

It's turn 1 (round 2). I'm wondering if it's now harder that 1.01.

If I had been you, I would have instead attacked that 28th Tank Division and 90th Rifle Division with Divisions of 18th Army and the 4th Panzergruppe Infantry Division in support. Those two seem to have out of HQ range and thus vulnerable. The aim would be to surround those Divisions who are in better position and flank it around from at least 3 sides, increasing your stack limit to 300, or pocket them outright.

Actually, in a previous battle, their HQ was eliminated.
Yes, if I were playing for effect, my choice would be to pocket them and attack them on a later turn with follow up infantry.

I know this doesn't show the optimal tactics. I'm mainly questioning the seeming minimal surprise effects and the difficultly on confirming boni/malus.

[:)]

[RandomAttack]

Again, if y'all haven't played a test game with FOW off and looked at the complete bonuses/penalties that are HIDDEN for the defender otherwise you just don't get it.
- The German gets his "special" bonus for the blitz (50%). That's it.
- I think most everyone PRESUMED the Russian (AI) was getting an "entrenchment penalty"-- but he clearly is not. Per Vic this is WAD.
So all the bonuses the German so laboriously tries to accumulate (first-turns blitz, HQ, etc.) are a drop in the bucket compared to the effect of the Russian full entrenchment bonus-- which is typically around 100%,

So as far as I can tell, the Russian gets NO "early turn" penalties (except when "counterattacking" during rounds). NONE. If you maintain they do please show me.

If the Russians are just going to be modeled as a straight-up, full strength, fully-prepared-from-Turn 1, massively dug-in, every-city-is-a-fortress foe, then what's the point? Russian base morale is higher than the Germans? Really? This becomes not a replay of Barbarossa but a fictional generic scenario. And yes, in the first few turns (with a couple of notable exceptions like Brest-Litovsk) the Germans SHOULD be running roughshod. Instead, it's a slog. The ONLY way to ensure a unit is killed is to totally surround it-- otherwise it just retreats (yes, you can SOMETIMES kill a weak unit by attacking it multiple times until it breaks). Where is the confusion, panic, melting away of entire units at first contact, etc? Without the stunning and perhaps improbable breakthroughs in the early turns the Germans should have no chance.

[barkhorn45]

You guy's need to get off your high horse and stop nitpicking this incredibly perfect game[:D]
Wait it's been patched how many times?[;)]
The above comments were thrown at me when I dared criticize combat result's.
Your right about the entrenchment level,Stalin would not allow any action's that the german's might construe as provocative.
There should be minimum entrenchment on the opening turn.

[Philippeatbay]

You know, general Nivelle used to make attacks like that and wonder why they didn't turn out exactly as expected.

If the early game bonus is working (and I have no reason to believe that it isn't), what it would do in a case like this is reduce the butcher's bill on a really bone-headed assault. And it's bone-headed because you shouldn't even be attacking that particular hex in the first place (Nivelle, once again).

You seem to be having trouble wrapping your head around this one, but I shudder to think what you'll say when the Siberians show up.

If you spend too much time staring at the trees you won't see the forest. Combat really isn't difficult if you worry about the right things. 1.01 is irrelevant because we've passed it and will be going a lot further. Don't obsess over the numbers, they'll just clutter your mind. Use an impressionistic approach, and focus on interpreting the flags in the box under the defending units' name. Real life(tm) isn't about number crunching.

If you really want to find out what the bonus does, there are plenty of weak attacks you can make in AGS that make sense and that will work. Try one of those (in the open, from two hexes, 2:1 odds), then reduplicate it with a similar attack six turns later against fresh regular troops (assuming you can find any that are still alive).

And in case anyone didn't get the joke, being slightly over-stacked really doesn't matter.

[RandomAttack]

If the early game bonus is working (and I have no reason to believe that it isn't), what it would do in a case like this is reduce the butcher's bill on a really bone-headed assault. And it's bone-headed because you shouldn't even be attacking that particular hex in the first place (Nivelle, once again).

The "special bonus" (50% blitz) for the Germans is working. There are no Soviet penalties of any kind except when counterattacking during combat rounds. This is in 1.03B. This has nothing to do with strategy and tactics, it's simply whether combat is working "as advertised". It's pretty clear they are not. And has been pointed out to me rather pointedly on several occasions, there are no "odds" in this game as the displayed power largely reflects numbers. So it may be "2:1" odds in raw numbers, but what about the reality that one side has 10K semi-trained guys with rifles and crappy leadership that are totally surprised and the other has 10K well-trained, battle-hardened, well-led soldiers. IMO this is NOT reflected in the first few critical turns-- it's almost a battle of equals.

[RandomAttack]

This is kind of interesting for those so inclined. Start a new game of 1.03B as human vs. human. FOW *must* be off. Speed thru the first turn screens. Pick a Soviet Inf Div in the open with 100 entrenchment and attack with two German Inf Divs. Look at the battle details. Lo and behold, all the expected modifiers seem to be fully applied!

My takeaways are:
1) People playing PBEM are getting MUCH different battle results than those playing against the AI. Battles seem MUCH more decisive (due to the application of *all* bonus/penalties). So people that play mostly PBEM are having very different experiences/results than those playing the AI. They are completely different. Apples and oranges. I think this is where a lot of contradictory opinions are coming from.

2) In SP the AI side seems completely buffed. If you are the Germans, the Soviets get FULL entrenchment which significantly impacts your advance. Seems like the casualties are about HALF what they are in hotseat/PBEM. If you are the Soviets you get the entrenchment PENALTY, as well as seeming to be more hobbled as to how many units you can activate, etc.

So a straight SP experience isn't even attractive to me at this point. I'll just play hotseat to get a "fair" game, although that is not what I wanted. I would REALLY like to see Vic & Cameron come up with a SP mode that quits buffing the AI so much. Let's use the same rules for both! For me it isn't just about winning or losing, but "feeling" some kind of historical parallel.

[baloo7777]

Many games are really two different versions, SP and PBEM. I believe that Cameron and Vic are still tweaking the two very different games that are DC:B. They came out with the 1.03b patch just recently, and I think I remember Cameron or Vic saying (in another thread) to be patient, they were coming out with a patch for SP mode very soon. But questioning why or how things work is always a good thing, as it leads to very good discussions from varied viewpoints.

[willgamer]

ORIGINAL: Philippe at bay

You know, general Nivelle used to make attacks like that and wonder why they didn't turn out exactly as expected.

If the early game bonus is working (and I have no reason to believe that it isn't), what it would do in a case like this is reduce the butcher's bill on a really bone-headed assault. And it's bone-headed because you shouldn't even be attacking that particular hex in the first place (Nivelle, once again).

Let's agree it's bone-headed. That's not the point. I had completed a German win in 1.02g and was playing around to see what to expect on turn 1 with 1.03b. I was surprised when the results of this attack looked alarming like the same attack in October.

You seem to be having trouble wrapping your head around this one, but I shudder to think what you'll say when the Siberians show up.

Whatever... my head is wrapped well enough to have won 3 German SP games with increasing VPs, starting with the initial release.

If you spend too much time staring at the trees you won't see the forest. Combat really isn't difficult if you worry about the right things. 1.01 is irrelevant because we've passed it and will be going a lot further. Don't obsess over the numbers, they'll just clutter your mind. Use an impressionistic approach, and focus on interpreting the flags in the box under the defending units' name. Real life(tm) isn't about number crunching.

I am questioning the results. What is the degree of SP first turn surprise and is it reasonable to history?

If you really want to find out what the bonus does, there are plenty of weak attacks you can make in AGS that make sense and that will work. Try one of those (in the open, from two hexes, 2:1 odds), then reduplicate it with a similar attack six turns later against fresh regular troops (assuming you can find any that are still alive).

And in case anyone didn't get the joke, being slightly over-stacked really doesn't matter.

I already really know what I can do to weak, tired troops after about turn 4. Did I mention 3 German SP wins? My question is the thread title- Are 1st turn German advantages working?

[lancer]

Hi,

To clear up a bit of confusion here's how the early turn penalties work.

If you're playing a Soviet Player (human) they receive the blitzkrieg penalty and an entrenchment penalty. There are exceptions for units in cities and on the Finnish, Hungarian and Romanian borders. Soviet units in forests and swamps also gain an adverse terrain bonus (even at the start) but this doesn't apply on the Finnish border.

If you're playing the Soviet AI at normal AI level the Soviets receive a combined defensive penalty rather than the individual blitzkrieg and shock penalties as per the manual. This equates to a -65% defensive combat penalty on the first turn and decreasing amounts thereafter. The Soviet AI units aren't configured to a particular posture instead this is built into the combined off/def penalties/bonuses so the -65% def penalty encompasses this as well.

Overall the Soviet AI gets a better deal here than a Soviet Player, but not excessively so. A human Soviet player will, in general, outperform a Soviet AI hence the AI needs a small advantage to remain competitive.

The same exceptions that apply to the Soviet player also apply to a Soviet AI so if you are looking at a Soviet unit, for example in the 9th Army down south, it'll have no early turn penalties as it's in the Romanian border region however in the centre, 10th Army for example, they'll be penalised heavily.

In 1.03b there are a few small bugs remaining that ensure that on the first campaign turn the Soviet AI receives a -45% penalty instead of the -65% but it's not a big deal as the values were transposed and on turn 2 the -65% kicks in.

Cheers,
Cameron

[RandomAttack]

Lancer,
I understand what you are saying, but I don't understand how it is applied. Screenie from 1.03B, attack in open terrain. Earlier we were told this "defensive penalty" was ONLY applied as a penalty when the defender was essentially counterattacking. So how does this significantly help the German player? From the screenshot you can see there is not only no defensive penalty of any type when the German is attacking, but it gets it's 100 point (100%)/full entrenchment value. This immediate DOUBLING of basic defense value for the AI sure seems a heckuva lot more significant than a relatively minor penalty ONLY when Soviet AI counterattacks during rounds. But in human vs human the -50 entrenchment points ARE applied. That sure seems to have a much more significant effect on combat results. Can't we have a SP mode that uses modifiers just like human vs. human? The master players can always bump up the difficulty if it seems too easy for them.

[willgamer]

ORIGINAL: lancer

In 1.03b there are a few small bugs remaining that ensure that on the first campaign turn the Soviet AI receives a -45% penalty instead of the -65% but it's not a big deal as the values were transposed and on turn 2 the -65% kicks in.

Cheers,
Cameron

Thanks for the explanations! [&o]

Still unanswered is how the player can confirm boni/malus in the combat results. I see that you get more info when FOW is off. However, why can't you expose the surprise calculations even when FOW is on? [&:]

I can't agree with you that flipping the 45% with the 65% penalty on turns 1-2 is "not a big deal".

Getting the Germans off to a satisfactory (quick) start means calibrating your attacks on the first 3 turns quite differently to the rest of the game. It's critical to get the most result with the least effort on these early turns. Since there are no odds in this game, flipping these two values will likely distort your ability to evaluate all attacks.

Pretty much a non-issue though, as you've already caught the bug and I know we'll be getting the fix soon. [:)]

[RandomAttack]

To further request clarification, since I'm not sure I am cogently making my point, the Soviet AI counterattack penalty can only be expected to slightly reduce German casualties that are already relatively small. A counterattack doesn't seem to result in anything other than a "miss" for the counterattacker. Meanwhile, the unreduced entrenchment value seems to have a sizeable effect on reducing Soviet casualties. So I just don't see how these two things can be considered equivalent. Just from playing both ways it seems there is a *significant* difference in favor of Soviet AI. That's fine for a higher difficulty, but I don't think it's right for "normal".

[lancer]

Hi RandomAttack,

The AI is not meant to have equivalent capabilities as what is present in Single Player for obvious reasons. You have a huge advantage over this, and any other, AI by virtue of being a human and being able to take in the bigger picture and form coherent, and flexible, strategic plans.

The Soviet AI has all it's various factors lumped into single modifiers (Offensive and Defensive) that you can see visually on the unit pics (red and blue boxes).

You can also see those factors in action in the combat details log under 'special'.

Looking at your pic above the German infantry are attacking on Blitz posture and you can see that they have a 'special' bonus of +50%.

If you clicked on a Soviet unit attacking then it's special bonus would be -65% (if that was what was shown visually on the unit pics down the bottom).

Cheers,
Cameron

[RandomAttack]

Ha! You've never seen ME play! [X(][:D][:'(] But I appreciate the response. It's just when I look at it: 50% jumps me from 2.8 to 4.2! Lookout world! [8|] But the 100% entrenchment jumps defense from 80 to 160!![X(] I'll admit to not knowing the intimate details of the combat engine, but it just doesn't seem proportional. Maybe the raw numbers are just that misleading as to impact on results. As promised, I will play the final 1.03 a few times before commenting further. If push comes to shove, it will be a great incentive for me to learn to mod.

[WingedIncubus]

Just started a PBEM against KenchiSulla, with me playing the Germans.

I can 100% attest (and unfortunately, surely my opponent will too) that the Germans have all their bonuses working just fine. [:'(]