Bombers

[Lowpe]

The Allies can pack a base in 42 with enough AA that makes bombing it pointless....thus protecting your bombers, and not really having to fly CAP to protect the base either.

OTOH, Japan's 8cm tubes will down a 4E Allied beastie every now and then if you keep the altitude at 10K or higher. This necessitates a combined approach to base defense for the Empire and deep thought about where you place your 10cm AA early on.

I believe elsewhere, Pax mentioned that you need 300-400 fighters at Magwe to defend it along with radar and AA. That gives you enough planes to weather the sweeps, and engage the bombers. I have found this to be very true.[&o]

That is 10 fighter sentais![X(] But then again how much is that oil worth?

[rustysi]

There's an easier way.[:D] Push the Allies back in NE India.[:'(]

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

I believe elsewhere, Pax mentioned that you need 300-400 fighters at Magwe to defend it along with radar and AA. That gives you enough planes to weather the sweeps, and engage the bombers. I have found this to be very true.[&o]

That is 10 fighter sentais![X(] But then again how much is that oil worth?

Well, 6 - 8 IJA groups (if they are 49 ac groups which you really want for this). 10 if you can is even better as it makes it easier to rotate them out down to Rangoon for RnR.
But yes, it is a lot. Besides protecting your oil, you are training up pilots like crazy doing this and stalling the allied advance. Even though you would think most allied players could see this and avoid it, it is amazing how many AAR's end up in this for weeks, if not months during a game.

[Barb]

10 Fighter Sentais? In Scenario 1 Game? [X(]
(Counting my own Army Sentais Available from memory - some have 42, most 36 and few 27 planes max)
IIRC - In Feb 1943 I had about 13-14 Unrestricted Army Fighter/Fighter-Bomber Sentais in total... plus few little Detachments/I.F.Chutais around. Not counting "training" Sentais in Japan, Manchukuo and China:

1st Sentai - Unrestricted - Oscar
4th Sentai - Japan (R) - bought - Nicks
5th Sentai - Japan (R) - Nate
9th Sentai - China (R) - Nate
11th Sentai - Unrestricted - Oscar
13th Sentai - Unrestricted - Nicks
21st Sentai - Unrestricted - Nicks
24th Sentai - China (R) - Oscar
25th Sentai (10th I.F. Chutai) - China (R) - - Oscar
26th Sentai - about to arrive iirc
33rd Sentai - China (R) - bought - Oscar
47th I.F. Chutai - Unrestricted - Tojo
50th Sentai - Unrestricted - Oscar
54th Sentai - China (R) - Oscar
59th Sentai - Unrestricted - Oscar
64th Sentai - Unrestricted - Oscar
68th Sentai - Manchukuo (R) - bought - Tony
70th Sentai - Manchukuo (R) - Nate
77th Sentai - Unrestricted - Nate
78th Sentai - Manchukuo (R) - bought - Tony
85th Sentai - Manchukuo (R) - bought - Tojo
87th Sentai - Manchukuo (R) - bought - Tojo
203rd Sentai - Japan (R) - Nate
204th Sentai - Japan (R) - Nate
244th Sentai - Japan (R) - Nate
246th Sentai - Japan (R) - Nate
248th Sentai - Japan (R) - Nate

No wonder majority of games degenerate into "Who brings bigger club" if one has to use 75% of his Army fighter strength at one base to defend against 80% US heavy bomber units (4 of 7th, 90th, 43rd, 5th, 11th BGs) and 50% US medium bomber units (2 of 3rd, 22nd, 38th, 341st) available on map...

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: Barb

Not counting "training" Sentais in Japan, Manchukuo and China

These have to be sifted through and the ones that can, bought out just like the LCU's. Fighters are a priority for me ...

ORIGINAL: Barb
No wonder majority of games degenerate into "Who brings bigger club" if one has to use 75% of his Army fighter strength at one base to defend against 80% US heavy bomber units (4 of 7th, 90th, 43rd, 5th, 11th BGs) and 50% US medium bomber units (2 of 3rd, 22nd, 38th, 341st) available on map...

Yep. It's not the only counter, but it is an effective one.

[Jorge_Stanbury]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

I believe elsewhere, Pax mentioned that you need 300-400 fighters at Magwe to defend it along with radar and AA. That gives you enough planes to weather the sweeps, and engage the bombers. I have found this to be very true.[&o]

That is 10 fighter sentais![X(] But then again how much is that oil worth?

Well, 6 - 8 IJA groups (if they are 49 ac groups which you really want for this). 10 if you can is even better as it makes it easier to rotate them out down to Rangoon for RnR.
But yes, it is a lot. Besides protecting your oil, you are training up pilots like crazy doing this and stalling the allied advance. Even though you would think most allied players could see this and avoid it, it is amazing how many AAR's end up in this for weeks, if not months during a game.

If you do that... then I will bomb Rangoon's port instead... you keep the oil... but far, far away from Japan [:D]

[Alpha77]

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

The problem (for Japan) is that during early war it lacks a good interceptor plane. Only two models have a chance:

- A6M Zero is too feeble. No armor, low durability; each interception will cost significant losses.
- Ki-45a is not a dogfighter. so the preceding sweeps will take care of them easily.

Oscars, Tojos, etc are completely inadequate.

My experience is as follows. Lets assume the pilots are decent and have good morale and the fatigue is not overboard...

Zero can down 4E (I am talking about B17E or F, not D) but it will take them some losses esp. ops ones. The one or other is shot down. The 20mm guns are I assume ok, but maybe not accurate enough. Other problem speed. I had 4E (without escort) blast through a carrier CAP of ca. 40-50 A6M2s. The "combat" lasted 20 secs or so then they were over the fleet. Even scored one hit on one of the CVs (only light sys damage).

Oscar, same as above but worse. They still can damage them if they press the attack.

Tojo (with 2 LMG + 2 HMG), basically the same problem but they do better. Reason is better speed and a bit better dur. They press the attack more often then above 2, but also too light guns/no cannon

Nick only few groups can take these, but they are the best vs. bombers. Due to scarcity of them had mostly seen them vs. 2Es. But Mitchel will get downed a lot (and all 3 above tpyes als have probs with Mitchels)..


I believe the Zero would be better if they would press the attack more and do not break off combat so easily. I am sure the pilots have thoughts on their own in this game, so will not go simply "Banzai". At least not in the early phase. They are used to dogfighting in China and vs. Buffaloes in Burma, but not going against monsters [;)] Also they do not like the later Allied tactic of zoom and boom with their faster fighters. They think if the US doesnt want to dogfight them they are cowards. However sadly for them the tactic worked...[:'(]

Sure the Allies do not get many B17s at all. But therefore a lot of B24s and you know what later in the war I wonder still if they ever run out as I see a lot of B17 still in 9/1942. But this is AI, it does not withdraw any units so has a bit more stuff at all. Therefore it does not concentrate often like a human would.

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

If you do that... then I will bomb Rangoon's port instead... you keep the oil... but far, far away from Japan [:D]

That is where the Nicks are generally speaking.[X(] Especially if it is out of fighter sweep range.

Unfortunately, this game does come down to the bigger stick occasionally. Allies generally butt heads against a wall and go around with their bigger sticks.[:D]

[Yaab]

That is the side-effect of universal supply the Allies enjoy in WITP:AE. Just move all US 2E and 4E bombers to India, and the fuel, spare parts, bombs and replacement aircraft will be manufactured by the working poor of Calutta. No need to ship anything to India from USA.

[Jorge_Stanbury]

I don't think India is self sufficient; I still send quite a lot of supply convoys from CT to Bombay

[FeurerKrieg]

ORIGINAL: Yaab

That is the side-effect of universal supply the Allies enjoy in WITP:AE. Just move all US 2E and 4E bombers to India, and the fuel, spare parts, bombs and replacement aircraft will be manufactured by the working poor of Calutta. No need to ship anything to India from USA.

All the more reason to liberate Calcutta from the Commonwealth. [:D]

[rustysi]

All the more reason to liberate Calcutta from the Commonwealth.

Yup.[;)]

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: rustysi

There's an easier way.[:D] Push the Allies back in NE India.[:'(]

When playing stock, I did not give AA a second thought. It was so ineffective that I did not bother to buy out American flak units from the West Coast and flew all of my Allied bombing attacks at 6,000 feet. With the recent patch and DaBabes it is an entirely different story. Allied heavy flak units really hamper Japanese bombers. To the point that even Allied units in the open can fend off Japanese bombers. This is more historically accurate as Japanese bombers were forced to bomb from very high altitudes by mid war due to the lethal effect of Allied AA. And mid and late war upgrades of shipping is now more important. Even Japanese flak has more bite. My bombers tend to stay above 10k now.

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: Alpha77

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

The problem (for Japan) is that during early war it lacks a good interceptor plane. Only two models have a chance:

- A6M Zero is too feeble. No armor, low durability; each interception will cost significant losses.
- Ki-45a is not a dogfighter. so the preceding sweeps will take care of them easily.

Oscars, Tojos, etc are completely inadequate.

I believe the Zero would be better if they would press the attack more and do not break off combat so easily. I am sure the pilots have thoughts on their own in this game, so will not go simply "Banzai". At least not in the early phase. They are used to dogfighting in China and vs. Buffaloes in Burma, but not going against monsters [;)] Also they do not like the later Allied tactic of zoom and boom with their faster fighters. They think if the US doesnt want to dogfight them they are cowards. However sadly for them the tactic worked...[:'(]

This is the strength of Allied fighters at this stage of the war over Japanese. I don't really think many players notice it. Allied planes due to their durability and armor will take damage and remain in a fight. Unarmored Japanese planes will almost always break off and leave the action upon taking any damage. Watch some replays closely and you will see this. All other things being equal a large Allied fighter formation will eventually wear down a similar size Japanese one. People bitch about the weakness of Allied fighters in 1942 but I think that many do not understand how to use them in a way to maximize their strengths.

[LargeSlowTarget]

Interesting discussion. Yes, from my experience heavy bombers will get through no matter what. And Allied fighter are not weak in 1942. I have recently suffered a devastating air offensive in my PBEM against Ed aka IdahoNYer. I have seen B-17Es being outnumbered 10:1 by my CAP fighters - and the bombers got through without losses. I have also seen enemy sweeps being vastly outnumbered (for example 48:3, 45:2) - and getting away without losses and with kills on their own (A6M2, A6M3 and Oscars IIB vs. Wildcats and Beaufighters, not P-38s). That's with exp/air/def = 50+/70+/60+ pilots with good morale etc. flying at max altitude allowed for the "second-best mnvr band" house rule. I know that I am not the best player and I may not use optimal settings, still I expected less lopsided results in Nov 1942. 80% of my unrestricted air and ground forces are engaged in just trying to hold Burma against the Allied onslaught - something must be wrong with history [;)]. Kudos to Ed, he's a worthy opponent.

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget

80% of my unrestricted air and ground forces are engaged in just trying to hold Burma against the Allied onslaught - something must be wrong with history [;)]. Kudos to Ed, he's a worthy opponent.

Mentioned on page 1...happens very frequently.

Of course this aids greatly in Allied Pacific Operations.[:(]

[Jorge_Stanbury]

Once the Allies (inevitably) destroy Magwe's oil, then Burma becomes a kind of useless dump... a very poor place to advance.

so maybe just let the oil go? there are other more easy to defend oil centers.. so no need to put 80% of Japan's airforce there.
The key is Calcutta. If Calcutta is in Japanese hands, it is hard to destroy Magwe, so make it a fortress, put some divisions there, take advantage of the strong defense multiplier. Once it falls, then Magwe oil will follow sooner than later

[IdahoNYer]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget

80% of my unrestricted air and ground forces are engaged in just trying to hold Burma against the Allied onslaught - something must be wrong with history [;)]. Kudos to Ed, he's a worthy opponent.

Mentioned on page 1...happens very frequently.

Of course this aids greatly in Allied Pacific Operations.[:(]

Thanks L_S_T, but I can't take any credit - its all in other's AARs, like Jorge's!

I've learned all my "great tactics" from those before me - some in the history books, but many right here in this great forum!!

[IdahoNYer]

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

Once the Allies (inevitably) destroy Magwe's oil, then Burma becomes a kind of useless dump... a very poor place to advance.

I'm not sure I fully agree here Jorge...

Yes, Magwe's oil is a solid objective to be reduced - either by air or ground. However, Burma offers the Allies a way to fight the Japanese in late '42 and '43 that doesn't involve dealing with the KB - AND - the Allies have a good supply base in India, while the Jpn LOCs are pretty long.

And as Lowpe pointed out - IJA assets in Burma aren't in other areas of the Pacific. So, just putting pressure against Burma seems worthwhile. At a minimum it may take pressure off an IJA drive into China's back door at Paoshan (which is the main reason I started to increase Allied forces in Burma when L_S_T started heading in that direction). Whether or not the Allies intend to drive down to Rangoon later is a bigger question - one which doesn't need to be answered in late '42 or '43. Just getting a chance to fight the Jpn air and ground forces without having to do an Amphib with the KB running around to me is a worthwhile option.

And of course, using massed Allied Bombers (I wish I could mass like you did, but mine is a PDU-Off game), provides a great weapon to put pressure on the Japanese in Burma.

[Jorge_Stanbury]

Maybe I am doing something wrong, and a bit off-topic

but I am having big problems supplying anything below Chittagong.