Coast Defense effectiveness

[Mr.Frag]

Japan's CD's are generally 8x 4.7" & 16x 3". There are 3 larger ones that also have 6" and higher numbers of 4.7" and 3" guns.

The Allied units are either 155mm or 6" guns. They are not mixed units with various gun sizes.

Anything less then an Armored Cruiser driving into range should be getting hurt from 6" guns. A DD should be a lost cause as it is like a DD taking on a CA (due to the assumption that the CD guns are likely to be protected). The funny thing is Tranports can actually absorb more damage and still live to tell about it compaired to the much smaller ships like DD's and such.

You want to sail up to point blank range and drop your anchor? I certainly would not. CD guns are subject to damage via PORT air attacks and Bombardment TF's. If you only use BB's in the Bombardment TF, they will camp offshore far enough that they pummel the CD into dust while not taking any return fire. If you stick smaller ships in the mix, they will pull your TF closer to the shore and you'll get shot at. Thank heavens for BB's.

I still remember my very first PM attack as Japan when the AI had swiped the CD from Brisbane and dropped it into PM. Dang unit has 16 6" guns!

[Nikademus]

At the war's start the general rule of thumb, one that was certainly proved at Wake, was that land batteries tend to outdual ship batteries.....especially if using 'like' weapons.

Having airpower avail was key as well along with some incredible bad luck on the IJN side.....(IIRC, one DD got hit by a bomb which set off the depth charges, another suffered a mag explosion.)

In the end, the biggest factor was that the Wake invasion force was too weak to do the job at hand....rectified in the 2nd landing.
The marines and pilots sure put up one hell of a fight though.

Airpower was the crucial component at Milne Bay as well.

It would take a massive CD arrangement to beat off an attack by itself. (read: many guns, perferably of large size)

Something like Fort Drum would be nice to start off with

[SoulBlazer]

I believe that the Japanese destroyers damaged or sunk at Wake were very old models of ships as well.

[Feinder]

As has been said, it's nearly impossible to beat off an amphibious landing. 1st invasion of Wake, was simply because the IJN didn't land with enough troops in the first place.

Essentially, because the bad-guys are gonna overwhelm the defenders by sheer volume of force. Having a bunch of CD units to help defend, just means that attacker is gonna bring more guys and couple of cruisers.

In UV, CD units will (at best) shoot up transports a little, so that you bomb/torp them with air while they are unloading. And when you think about it, the units are "only" about the size of a destroyer. You get what, about 5 or 6 5" guns normally. That's a DD. Even with an additional 5 or 6 3" guns, it's still just a tad above DD (not really comparable to a CL with 6 to 8 6" guns, and propably an assortmet of 3" to 5" guns). Compare the shore battery to a "typical" invasion fleet with 6 DDs, 2 CLs, 4 CAs and sh1t-load of transports. The one little CD, that is perhaps equivalnt an up-gunned destroyer, isn't going to be stopping them.

Even historically, CD units didn't fair so well (with the exception of Wake Round #1, and has been pointed out, that was largely due to the luck of the Wilcats). By the end 1943, the USN had arrived at the conclusion that :

Pretty much, nothing was going to stop an amphibious invasion. The attacker was going almost certainly going to land with an overwhelming force, that the defenders simply could not adaquately defend against.

-F-

[mogami]

Hi, I think I will conduct a test of Singapores CD unit in WITP.
The Japanese Home Islands are studded with CD units. (Containing 24+ 240mm guns) The US West Coast has CD units with 72 guns

[madflava13]

A good read on the Wake situation is "The Story of Wake Island" by (James I think) Devereaux. Not sure I spelled that one right, as it's been awhile since I read it. He was the commander of the garrison there, and the book has a great description of the preparations made and the battles (and ultimate surrender) of the island.

[Drex]

Of course Devereaux is the main source but I wonder if other survivors wrote of their experience at Wake. I have "Wake Isalnd" by Duane Schultz (pritned 1978) which is pretty good if brief. Another good story is about the fate of the Wake Prisoners but this forum is not the place for that.

[Mike_B20]

Reading some of the history of Wake it is clear they didn't have enough troops to man all their weapons...roughly 400 troops when they needed 800 to man them.

I've often wondered why the 1200 civilian contractors on the island were not more inclined to fight.
I know that many of them volunteered for labour duty, moving the 3 inch AA batteries around etc, but I don't recall reading anything about them volunteering to man the weapons.

A pity, because about a third of them were massacred later by the Japanese and if they had picked up weapons I doubt the second invasion attempt would have worked.

[Mike_B20]

Reading some of the history of Wake it is clear they didn't have enough troops to man all their weapons...roughly 400 troops when they needed 800 to man them.

I've often wondered why the 1200 civilian contractors on the island were not more inclined to fight.
I know that many of them volunteered for labour duty, moving the 3 inch AA batteries around etc, but I don't recall reading anything about them volunteering to man the weapons.

A pity, because about a third of them were massacred later by the Japanese and if they had picked up weapons I doubt the second invasion attempt would have worked.

[fcooke]

'A Magnificent Fight' by Robert J. Cressman is a pretty good account of the fight on Wake. In the 2nd attempt the IJN sent along the Hiryu and Soryu to help out. Even then, if the Marines had better comms on the island they could have held out longer - the commander had no idea what shape his troops were in. It's amazing what those 4 Wildcats did. Lucky for the IJN they caught the other 8 Wildcats on the ground and destroyed them in the first bombing attack. ISBN on the book is 1-55750-140-8, printed in 95.

[Drex]

Frank I think you just mentioned an important point that poor communication was the cause of the surrender. Devereaux had no idea that the rest of his command was actually winning and only knew his own position was hopeless. But if he hadn't surrendered it it had to say how the Japanese would have treated them afterward.