name the planes

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bomccarthy
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RE: name the planes

Post by bomccarthy »

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

I agree, but when you read all the ingenuity that the British had in finding a short term solution to their significant challenges, then you have to question if the Japanese did enough. I once again highly recommend http://www.armouredcarriers.com/ webpage.
By early WW2 they didn't have anything other than Sea Gladiators, plus an emergency program that would yield the Fulmar. Seeing the gap, they quickly decided to convert RAF Battle of Britain leftover Hurricanes and Spitfires into some working, if highly compromised, designs. The early Seafires were prone to deck landing crashes, both were very short ranged, neither had folding wings (early version), Sea Hurricanes didn't fit in the elevators, etc. But they worked out solutions like using the Fulmars for long patrols while keeping the Sea Hurricanes ready on deck to launch when the enemy was spotted.

And it can be argued that Japan was in a different situation, having a working design in the Zero, but overall, you can see more rigidity in their problem solving compared to the Allies. By the way technology was advancing, the Zero replacement should had been ready by late 1942/ early 1943

If you consider that the A6M5’s performance was roughly similar to that of the Seafire II (although with a much longer range), the IJN did keep up with the Fleet Air Arm through mid-war, until the FAA started using Corsairs.

Technology was not advancing at the same pace around the world – the Allied manufacturers were not sharing their technology with the Axis manufacturers after 1939 (notwithstanding the fact that the Bf-109 and Ju-87 prototypes were powered by mid-30s British engines). The Japanese in particular lagged behind in supercharger technology for high altitude performance (few of their aircraft had auxiliary-stage superchargers). They also suffered from too few highly skilled machinists needed to fabricate the specialty tooling that would have enabled their large pool of low-skilled workers to produce mass quantities of tight-tolerance aircraft components.

Japan simply didn’t have the breadth of engineering and skilled blue-collar worker talent enjoyed by the U.S. and Britain. The IJN issued the 16-Shi spec for the A6M’s replacement in 1940, but had to withdraw it because Mitsubishi’s design staff was fully deployed on improvements to the A6M and on the design of the J2M. The similar 17-Shi spec was finally issued in mid-1942, resulting in the A7M program. But the same shortage of designers and skilled workers delayed completion of the first A7M prototype until April 1944.

In retrospect, the IJN might have done better to focus solely on a carrier-based fighter. Although the J2M performed better than the A6M in some areas, it didn’t have the range of the A6M and, more importantly, it robbed Mitsubishi of the design staff needed to answer the 1940 16-Shi spec.

FYI – Francillon provides some decent background on what was going on with Japanese designs. I am also trying to find a monograph published in the 1980s (I think) by the Japan Machine Tool Builders’ Association concerning the evolution of the Japanese heavy tool industry in the defense sector. I came across the English-language on Google books a couple of years ago, but lost the link. The author included some good information concerning Jiro Horikoshi’s efforts in 1940 with the tooling subsidiary of Mitsubishi Heavy Industries to enable the mass production of the A6M. I seem to recall the author quoting him as saying “I want this airplane to be built by students and housewives”, or something similar. He was apparently successful, since some 10,000 A6Ms were eventually built (compared to 5,900 Ki-43s, 1,200 Ki-44s, 3,500 Ki-84s, 1,400 N1K Shindens, and 900 J2Ms).
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Jorge_Stanbury
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RE: name the planes

Post by Jorge_Stanbury »

that is exactly the point; why focus on 2 non carrier capable fighters? why not let the Army deal with that problem
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RE: name the planes

Post by bomccarthy »

It was probably related to the sometimes virulent animosity between the IJA and IJN. To use a modern pop cultural reference, an agreement between the IJA and IJN to divide up aerial defense duties would be like an "alliance" between the Lannisters and Martels - completely practical and in each other's best interest, but absolutely unrealistic and ultimately doomed to fail. Historically, getting the US Army and US Navy to not duplicate each other's efforts when it came to air defense was almost impossible, and they weren't trying to kill each other.
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RE: name the planes

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The most critical problem the Japanese had was engines. The US had the P&W 2800 coming into production at the start of the war. The P-47, B-26, and Corsair were designed around it and the Hellcat was upgraded to it during development. The Japanese had good aeronautical design, but their engine and metallurgy industries were behind the west. They had licensed designs from the west, the Sakae that powered the Zero was a Gnome Rhome engine approximately equivalent to the P&W 1830. It was so similar that all but one flyable Zero today has a P&W 1830 installed.

The 1830 was a great engine that powered many US planes, but it was becoming obsolescent as a fighter engine when the war started. The only US fighter in production by mid-war with that class of engine was the FM-2 which had the Wright R-1820 which was a bit more powerful than earlier Wildcats, but still not on par with the P&W 2800 (the earlier models of the F4F had the P&W 1830). All other fighters had Allisons, Merlins, or P&W 2800s. That gave Allied fighters an edge over Japanese fighters in power right out of the gate.

The Japanese finally got their home designs of higher performance engines de-bugged, but years after the 2800 was in mass production. Those engines were never as reliable as American made engines and by the time they finally entered service, their pilot pool was so poor they were outclassed there too.

The A7M Sam was the intended carrier replacement for the Zero. Suburo Sakai flew the prototype and declared it the best fighter he ever flew. The Sam's top speed was slightly less than the George or Raiden, but it was much more maneuverable. Unfortunately for Japan, the plant was damaged in an earthquake on Dec 7, 1944 (ironic) and was completely destroyed by B-29s the following March. Only 9 were built.

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RE: name the planes

Post by PaxMondo »

ORIGINAL: wdolson

The most critical problem the Japanese had was engines. Bill
+1
And to elaborate on that, it wasn't the engine, it was the induction systems. IJ had decent single stage super chargers in the mid-30's.
What they had enormous difficulty in designing were effective and producible multi-stage super chargers and twin chargers (turbo-super charger combinations).
The Ha-4x series of engines were all in development by the early 40's and working prototypes of them existed. However, they took several years to work out the induction systems.
The smallest of the Ha-4x series (Ha-45) didn't go into production until mid-43, 2 years behind schedule due to the 2 stage super charger development issues, and even then it did not meet performance specs.
So, they ended up having to increase the compression ratios of the cylinders to compensate for the performance loss with the accompanying cylinder life loss. It wasn't until almost the end of '44 that they finally
got most of their issues sorted out and were able to start producing effective multi-stage charger systems. Unfortunately for them by that time (3 years late), the war had turned; factories were being destroyed, and material shortages were common.


What this meant was that they simply did not have an engines to power a plane faster than about 350 kt until mid-'43. They had designs, but no engines for those designs...
Then from mid-43 to late '44, they got to just under 400 kts by kicking up compression ratios to compensate for underperforming units. That led to faster cylinder wear (in game, high SR). Late '44, they finally get things right and speeds can now get towards 450 kts with less engine wear (SR's on a lot of models drop to 2)
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RE: name the planes

Post by KMCCARTHY »

I assume there is no game mechanic that could simulate the earthquake, right?
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RE: name the planes

Post by Jorge_Stanbury »

Interesting they didn't get any help from the Germans; understanding of course the difference in industrial capabilities.
Instead of focusing on the German inline (which ended in Ha-60) it might had been a better idea to just work with a BMW 801 equivalent
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RE: name the planes

Post by wdolson »

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

Interesting they didn't get any help from the Germans; understanding of course the difference in industrial capabilities.
Instead of focusing on the German inline (which ended in Ha-60) it might had been a better idea to just work with a BMW 801 equivalent

The Japanese did build the DB 601 under license. The BMW 801 was not considered all that great an engine until Focke Wulf proved otherwise. The Japanese built DB 601 was plagued with problems which is why the Tony and Judy have high service ratings.

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RE: name the planes

Post by geofflambert »

ORIGINAL: wdolson

The most critical problem the Japanese had was engines. The US had the P&W 2800 coming into production at the start of the war. The P-47, B-26, and Corsair were designed around it and the Hellcat was upgraded to it during development. The Japanese had good aeronautical design, but their engine and metallurgy industries were behind the west. They had licensed designs from the west, the Sakae that powered the Zero was a Gnome Rhome engine approximately equivalent to the P&W 1830. It was so similar that all but one flyable Zero today has a P&W 1830 installed.

The 1830 was a great engine that powered many US planes, but it was becoming obsolescent as a fighter engine when the war started. The only US fighter in production by mid-war with that class of engine was the FM-2 which had the Wright R-1820 which was a bit more powerful than earlier Wildcats, but still not on par with the P&W 2800 (the earlier models of the F4F had the P&W 1830). All other fighters had Allisons, Merlins, or P&W 2800s. That gave Allied fighters an edge over Japanese fighters in power right out of the gate.

The Japanese finally got their home designs of higher performance engines de-bugged, but years after the 2800 was in mass production. Those engines were never as reliable as American made engines and by the time they finally entered service, their pilot pool was so poor they were outclassed there too.

The A7M Sam was the intended carrier replacement for the Zero. Suburo Sakai flew the prototype and declared it the best fighter he ever flew. The Sam's top speed was slightly less than the George or Raiden, but it was much more maneuverable. Unfortunately for Japan, the plant was damaged in an earthquake on Dec 7, 1944 (ironic) and was completely destroyed by B-29s the following March. Only 9 were built.

Bill

I'm not sure what others think but I think it should be stated clearly that the Hellcat did not have the exact same engine as the Thunderbolt. I've run into at least one person being confused about that.

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RE: name the planes

Post by wdolson »

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

I'm not sure what others think but I think it should be stated clearly that the Hellcat did not have the exact same engine as the Thunderbolt. I've run into at least one person being confused about that.

The Thunderbolt didn't have the exact same engine as the Thunderbolt either if you're comparing version to version. All production versions of the P-47 had turbo superchargers and no production version of the Hellcat had a turbo (though the XF6F-4 was tested with a turbo). That made a difference in the engine selection.

If you compare versions of the P&W 2800 with each other, they will have a lot more in common than another engine model.

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RE: name the planes

Post by Alfred »

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

Interesting they didn't get any help from the Germans; understanding of course the difference in industrial capabilities.
Instead of focusing on the German inline (which ended in Ha-60) it might had been a better idea to just work with a BMW 801 equivalent

The Germans were just plain awful with their transfer of technical knowledge. That weakness was consistent with their inability to structure their industry production efficiently, and before someone chimes in with Speer, yes he too did not come anywhere close to maximising industrial production.

If the Germans were as uber as so many people credit them with, by the winter of 1941 they had access to a GDP comparable to that of the USA. They just weren't very good in industry.

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RE: name the planes

Post by bomccarthy »

ORIGINAL: wdolson

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

I'm not sure what others think but I think it should be stated clearly that the Hellcat did not have the exact same engine as the Thunderbolt. I've run into at least one person being confused about that.

The Thunderbolt didn't have the exact same engine as the Thunderbolt either if you're comparing version to version. All production versions of the P-47 had turbo superchargers and no production version of the Hellcat had a turbo (though the XF6F-4 was tested with a turbo). That made a difference in the engine selection.

If you compare versions of the P&W 2800 with each other, they will have a lot more in common than another engine model.


What's interesting is that the XF6F-1 was built with a Wright R-2600 and the XF6F-2 was given an R-2600 with a turbo-supercharger, before deciding on the P&W R-2800 as a better engine. You can see the turbo installation required a deeper cowl and forward fuselage (giving the forward section a look similar to the P-47, which had the turbo located in the rear fuselage):



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wdolson
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RE: name the planes

Post by wdolson »

The R-2600 was the same engine used in the TBF and SB2C. Having all planes on board with the same engine would have been a maintenance convenience, but the R-2800 is a much more powerful engine. Most versions of the R-2600 were around 1600 to 1700 hp while most production models of the R-2800 had 2000-2800 hp. That extra horsepower is a big advantage in combat. The F6F was originally intended as just a stopgap, but the R-2800 made it a war winner.

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RE: name the planes

Post by LargeSlowTarget »

ORIGINAL: Alfred

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

Interesting they didn't get any help from the Germans; understanding of course the difference in industrial capabilities.
Instead of focusing on the German inline (which ended in Ha-60) it might had been a better idea to just work with a BMW 801 equivalent

The Germans were just plain awful with their transfer of technical knowledge. That weakness was consistent with their inability to structure their industry production efficiently, and before someone chimes in with Speer, yes he too did not come anywhere close to maximising industrial production.

If the Germans were as uber as so many people credit them with, by the winter of 1941 they had access to a GDP comparable to that of the USA. They just weren't very good in industry.

Alfred

German industry was hampered amongst others by power struggles, rivalries and ego clashes within the Nazi hierarchy (who controls what), divided responsibilities (Hitler's 'divide and rule'), Hitler's conviction that quality would beat quantity and his dislike for the "American way" of mass production (hence many weapons were "hand-build" until Speer convicted Hitler that quantity has a quality of its own), botched priorities management (basically everything was priority so in the end nothing really go priority), the famous order in early 1940 to "stop development of everything not ready within the year since we will have won by then with the stuff we already have", lack of key resources, lack of skilled manpower etc.

The "über-credits" tagged to the Germans regarding industrial and technological prowess (don't we love the "super wonder weapons" and "Nazi megastructures" flics on the Hitler channel?) must be seen as attempts to make appear the Allied victory even bigger and more impressive - "look what they had and we still kicked their butts - aren't we the coolest dudes on the planet?". Well, gladly you were, distortions in historiography notwithstanding.
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RE: name the planes

Post by wdolson »

There was an excellent article in World War II magazine about a year ago that compared the US, Russian, and German tank industry.

The Americans took advice from car makers and built tanks like cars. Their combat quality was OK, production quality very good, but everything was standardized for mass production.

The Russians perfected a sort of shoddiness not paying much attention to quality where it wasn't important and only building tanks that could survive it's expected lifespan and no longer. One point they made was about the debate about whether to put a transmission in the T-34 that would last for 10,000 KM, or a better one that would be built to closer tolerances. Since they only lasted long enough to drive 1000-5000 KM, it was good enough to have a 10,000 KM transmission. Welds were also kind of sloppy, but as long as nothing was falling apart, the tank moved down the production line.

The Germans until Albert Speer tried to revolutionize production hand crafted everything. They were constantly tweaking designs and a tank built on Tuesday could differ from one built on Friday. It made repair in the field a nightmare because the mechanics would get things torn down only to discover they had the part for tanks build before Tuesday and this was a Friday tank. They fussed so much with tweaking designs they never got anything fully debugged and only their oldest designs that were considered obsolescent had any kind of reliability.

The Germans only produced about 1350 Tiger Is in two years of production, when even the KV-1 had over 5000 produced and the Russians built over 40,000 T-34/85s during the was (as well as 35,000 T-34/76s). The T-34/85 was not a match for the Tiger I's armor, but the 85mm gun was 85-90% as powerful as the 88mm. With about a 35:1 advantage in numbers, you can afford to lose a few getting the Tiger.

The Germans were good engineers, but not so great at production. American engineering was excellent in some areas (the US led the world in metallurgy before, during, and after the war) and not the absolute best in many areas, but Americans were the best experts at mass production and unlike the Axis, the British and Americans had few qualms about putting women to work in production jobs.
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