Chaos(SHC) vs Pelton-T131- Game Over-Soviet victory.

[Bozo_the_Clown]

Glantz clearly states German Army strength at 3.5 million July 43

Laughable. [8|]

Is anyone investigating the HQ displacement thing that happened in this game? I would like to know if this is really a bug or if the game file has been manipulated.

[chaos45]

Pretty tired of the debate over losses/OOB- everyone knows they are off period.

Bugs have affected both sides so thats a wash, Pelton can give up the game anytime he wishes....having already invested 4+ months into this game I intend to continue though provided he doesnt give up.

As to the German army- Time will tell, His forces are weakening and as I retake towns/cities my manpower recruitment is actually going up so my formations are filling up now. Trucks are fine and being that hes not retreating fast or really at all my RR engineers are easily keeping up so until winter will not be a concern.

On average the Axis are losing 50-70k men a week however probably 20k of them are axis allied as he has a tendency to leave the Romanians as a rearguard to slow me down and my continuous attacks against the Finns. So pretty well disproves the Axis allied forces as being useless as he is using them to buy time and absorb losses to conserve the German army.

As to my airforce- it still exist, just saw no need to have 15k planes anymore- Red Air force is now 8-9k aircraft and I still have extra airbases to disband. With all the changes to the airwar is no reason to build a large Soviet air force anymore. 2-3 bases per front is all you need and then just leave it on auto pilot.

[chaos45]

Also a quick comment on win/loss ratio----that is a completely worthless statistic. I launch alot of attacks I know will fail some turns. As sometimes Im purely attacking to inflict losses on both sides and knock down forts as I figure I will get at least 1.5:1 to get the fort reduction which then means the next attack with fresh units will take the hex.

Another worthless statistic is the loss ratio---- As neither of us at this point are the historical commanders, and in general I wont take attacks as poor as Stalin and who knows if Peltons defense tactics are as good or better than German defense tactics---personally I think his stands on the east side of rivers and allowing me to force units into overstacks all the time is costing him alot of additional losses and thus increasing the odds in my favor as the turns go by.

Also his lack of counterattacks to save his own men reduces my losses as well since retreat losses factor in so heavily. So no Soviet retreats/routs because of few if any successful German attacks slowly moves the odds more in favor of the Soviets----read the historical german defense in Russia it relied heavily on counterattacks to inflict losses on the Soviets- Usually due to the Soviets overextending themselves.

Im not historical stalin and pushing my units ruthlessly forward to be routed and surrounded by German counterattacks in 1943 so you can get historical loss ratios.

At this point the odds ratios are getting even better for the Soviets as his units are getting worn down and I dont even need to launch attritional attacks as much as I can usually just win as long as im not launching hasty attacks those still fail alot. Not to mention my morale has increased and I now have units getting morale above NM levels again finally so my offensive units are becoming more and more effective again.

[Mamluke]

AS this AAR been droped? such a pity then. it was just about to get exciting

[chaos45]

waiting on patch

[chaos45]

Game was resumed not much to report stacks of fortified germans being slowly pushed west. Soviet forces make it next to Kharkov/Kursk, and in the north the finns gave up two hexes which is allowing more and more soviet rifle corps over the river.

Airpower is alot more useful in this patch hoping its not to useful over the long game with the changes....as being able to attack any hex 3 times with airstrikes basically means if you want you can bomb the entire frontline.

Now against terrain/forts not that great but once u unhinge a defense line some you can then pound them with airstrikes pretty heavily. Example attack a hex push them out to a lower fort...bomb three times....hit again for a push back then bomb the same stack 3 times again....means over 1 turn your inflicting upwards of 1-2k in losses on that stack from airpower alone...just something ive already noticed.

[Bob12]

Lol the casualty hauls are going to be epic now.

[chaos45]

Bob- They reduced casualties from combat though so no massive increase in losses noticed on first turn ive played under new patch.

In fact for the amount of attacks and bombing I did it seems losses are much lower for both sides overall again. The big difference I think we are going to see if once a German defense line is broken the situation will very quickly deteriorate until the Germans fall back to get a week of a breather to rebuild defenses.

As air losses against forts aren't all that great but once u get the Germans in the open you can pour on the hurt from the air. So its really a double/triple whammy to those guys...they get attacked, lose pushed into an open not heavily fortified hex bombed a lot attacked again, bombed some more. Means that even in the next turn those units will be pretty battered unless rotated to a less active sector.

[Disgruntled Veteran]

In regards to the endless German numbers debate: is it possible both sides have some truth? When someone says the German army has x number of men, are they including army, air force, ss, auxiliaries or just army. I've read a lot of conflicting numbers and I've often wondered if this is the hang up.

[SigUp]

ORIGINAL: Disgruntled Veteran

In regards to the endless German numbers debate: is it possible both sides have some truth? When someone says the German army has x number of men, are they including army, air force, ss, auxiliaries or just army. I've read a lot of conflicting numbers and I've often wondered if this is the hang up.

No it isn't, the WitE armies are bloated, it's a simple fact. For example here is an overview of the strength of the German army in the east from July 43 to July 44. The upper line includes Luftwaffe Feld-units and Waffen SS units. Even including regular Luftwaffe personnel it is still far away from the 4 million+ seen in various AARs.

And to make it clear, the above graph is talking about "Iststärke", which was for administrative purposes, including all personnel on leave and sick/wounded within eight weeks and was also applied to Hiwis.

[Michael T]

Emailed Pelton and Moreaval---- because a bunch of strangeness just happened for T113- almost all of my army HQs were suddenly moved out of command range of their respective armies. No breakthroughs to re-locate them at all they just mysteriously moved far to the rear for some reason.

I wondered if this bug would ever re surface. And alas it has. It was never fixed. It was a complete mystery even to Joel and Co. Shame as it puts me off playing WITE now. I was intending to start a game as Soviet but this pulls the rug out so to speak.

Can you find this one Morvael?

EDIT: As I recall it occurred also in early 1943.

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: Michael T

Emailed Pelton and Moreaval---- because a bunch of strangeness just happened for T113- almost all of my army HQs were suddenly moved out of command range of their respective armies. No breakthroughs to re-locate them at all they just mysteriously moved far to the rear for some reason.

I wondered if this bug would ever re surface. And alas it has. It was never fixed. It was a complete mystery even to Joel and Co. Shame as it puts me off playing WITE now. I was intending to start a game as Soviet but this pulls the rug out so to speak.

Can you find this one Morvael?

EDIT: As I recall it occurred also in early 1943.

I think its just happened in my game with vigabrand - I found a number of HQs well to the rear of where I'd put them. Initially I thought I'd just been careless but they were properly deployed the previous turn and no German offensive in that sector (this is late 43/early 44)

happy to supply saves

[BrianG]

I agree. I thought I had northern air hq move on me and the airbase it was on. Think it was my Pelton game.

recently.

so far a one time event.

I also think it was before the latest update

[chaos45]

ya when i first opened the turn 113 I thought man I was an idiot as I first noticed a couple HQs in the central north out of position but then as I went down my line doing stuff I noticed almost all my HQs had been auto moved a strange AI bug to say the least. So far hasnt happened again.

[VigaBrand]

ORIGINAL: loki100

ORIGINAL: Michael T

Emailed Pelton and Moreaval---- because a bunch of strangeness just happened for T113- almost all of my army HQs were suddenly moved out of command range of their respective armies. No breakthroughs to re-locate them at all they just mysteriously moved far to the rear for some reason.

I wondered if this bug would ever re surface. And alas it has. It was never fixed. It was a complete mystery even to Joel and Co. Shame as it puts me off playing WITE now. I was intending to start a game as Soviet but this pulls the rug out so to speak.

Can you find this one Morvael?

EDIT: As I recall it occurred also in early 1943.

I think its just happened in my game with vigabrand - I found a number of HQs well to the rear of where I'd put them. Initially I thought I'd just been careless but they were properly deployed the previous turn and no German offensive in that sector (this is late 43/early 44)

happy to supply saves

Hi,
but our game wasn't a server game, so the developer could look at it.
You had all saves, I think. Send it to morvael and co.

[RKhan]

ORIGINAL: loki100

ORIGINAL: Michael T

Emailed Pelton and Moreaval---- because a bunch of strangeness just happened for T113- almost all of my army HQs were suddenly moved out of command range of their respective armies. No breakthroughs to re-locate them at all they just mysteriously moved far to the rear for some reason.

I wondered if this bug would ever re surface. And alas it has. It was never fixed. It was a complete mystery even to Joel and Co. Shame as it puts me off playing WITE now. I was intending to start a game as Soviet but this pulls the rug out so to speak.

Can you find this one Morvael?

EDIT: As I recall it occurred also in early 1943.

I think its just happened in my game with vigabrand - I found a number of HQs well to the rear of where I'd put them. Initially I thought I'd just been careless but they were properly deployed the previous turn and no German offensive in that sector (this is late 43/early 44)

happy to supply saves

Perhaps it is a random purge by Stalin, causing generals to run for their lives?

[Michael T]

Well it was a game ending bug for me. Very bad. 100's of hours put in to a game to have it abruptly end in early 1943 was just devastating. I haven't played as a Soviet since.

[RKhan]

ORIGINAL: Michael T

Well it was a game ending bug for me. Very bad. 100's of hours put in to a game to have it abruptly end in early 1943 was just devastating. I haven't played as a Soviet since.

Point taken. I hope this is not in my future as well.

[chaos45]

Soviet forces took a break to refit and re-supply on T115. Instead of retreating German forces at Kharkov stood fast toe to toe with Soviet rifle corps for the first time in awhile.

T116- First week of September all hell breaks loose north and South of Kharkov entire German Corps are routed and 15+ German divisions encircled at Kharkov....Can Pelton Save them???

Losses were extremely heavy for the Germans as units are repeatedly attacked by roughly 15 Soviet Mobile armies in this sector [8D]

The attacks on the pocket were to drain off their ammo and fuel so they cant aid any breakout attempts. Evil of me I know.

[ericv]

Nicely done! Very good result against Pelton in september 1943. Nothing against Pelton, but hope you can seal the pocket and destroy it. Curious how something like that is going to affect Pelton's gameplay and end result.

edit : from some earlier posts, ingame date of August 5th, there was a Panzerkorps or two right on Kharkov. Are they among the encircled divisions?