Chaos(SHC) vs Pelton-T131- Game Over-Soviet victory.

[sillyflower]

Not bad for a bull####er who allegedly doesn't know how to play. If you are so clueless, what does that say about your opponent [;)]?

[chaos45]

at least 4-5 panzer divisions, panzer grenadier divisions inside the pocket. 2-3 full divisions and another couple worth of broken down regiments he was using for reserve reactions I herded into the pocket. I actually had 1 more infantry division and 1 more panzer regiment in the pocket but decided to rout the stack to make it harder for him to get a line into them if he opted to counterattack. as it would have allowed one area he only needed 2 hexes to get to them instead of the 3 hex wide zone i have all around the pocket.

[smokindave34]

Nicely done but I do have one criticism of your Kharkov operation.....couldn't you have waited to launch this operation until Pelton returned from his temporary forum ban? You've deprived us all of great entertainment.

[chaos45]

Big shot of the frontline overall T116- main events big Kharkov encirclement. Got a hex across the Luga line in the north. continuing to smash the finns in the far north...hopefully knock them out of the war by early 1944. As their northern front is collapsing and my advance should get quicker till mud hits and then resume in cold weather.

In the center Rhzev area making slow progress against thick heavily dug in German lines- basically grinding out 4-5 hexes a turn typcially...think hes running out of high lvl 2 and lvl 3 forts tho.

Kursk is retaken, and Kharkov is encircled trapping 16 German divisions and 11 Support units- as thats the loss report I get from wiping out the pocket post for T117.

[chaos45]

Mostly final positions of the kharkov encirclement I ended up moving another shock army in to shore up the northern most flank next to the german lines. The two empty hexes south of pink cav corps was filled by green cav corps by the end of the turn as I decided I didnt like those 2 open hexes there.

[chaos45]

An the offensive that should be the final nail in the coffin for the finnish eventually as that front has more than enough firepower to finish them alone.

[chaos45]

The grim reapers toll from the Kharkov Pocket.

[chaos45]

Here is the total losses for T117....I have noticed he seems to be running out of heavy weapons as for the amount of divisions he lost he really didnt lose a ton of 105mm+ artillery pieces. Which means his armaments crunch must be very, very bad.

I think part of this is my playstyle as well not just the game AI not using armaments to replace the right units. My Soviet Army in late 1943 is less than 8.5M men...compare that to many other games at this point. I attack alot and make both armies bleed alot. Even in Sep 1943 I have no surplus of pretty much anything as I burn it all up in combat lol. 0 manpower, 0 armaments, and basically no medium or light tanks in the pool. I have also started to disband all of my medium tank regiments and replace them with more sapper/heavy SU/heavy tank regiments...since im out of medium soviet tanks basically.

German OOB at this point is about 3.2M and my OOB is about 8.4M should have grabbed a screenshot of it.

[timmyab]

The situation at Kharkov looks extremely serious. It's probably not even wise to attempt a rescue operation. The rescuers risk becoming trapped themselves.
I'd be considering suing for peace at this stage if it was me. [:D]

[Bob12]

Devastating Stalingrad type result. Knew you'd get a breakthrough in the south eventually, didn't think it would end this way though. He's got some falling back to do if he wants to survive, no straight front line and hex to Berlin counting in this game haha.

[chaos45]

Ya his comments when he comes back will be amusing im sure. Was really surprised he didnt give up Kharkov once I got over the river in front of it with infantry corps and I had pushed in his flank some across the river north, plus having open ground between the rivers in the south.....Meant armor had two paths of open terrain to funnel through once my infantry and cav corps had broken his lines. Basically I lead off with bombing, plus numerous infantry corps assaults most of them succeeded and bleed off almost all of his reserve reactions. Then to further cement the breakthrough my shock armies which are my cav corps moved in and smashed some more hexes. Then the furthest back tank armies moved forward to finish smashing his secondary lines and smashing any remaining units of note that fell back. This took roughly 6 tank corps for the southern penetration.....after that I just poured the other 6 tank armies through the hole in the south hasty attacking all his weakened divisions out of the way and making the breach pretty massive.

For the north it was much the same but he had stayed locked close to a bunch of some of my best Guard rifle corps so my guard rifle corps were able to pretty much smash his main and secondary lines. Allowing the shock army with cav corps to really open it up....then 2 pretty much guard tank armies poured through hasty attacking his weakened forces out of the way. Then since I only had 2 tank armies I shifted an additional shock cav army through just to shore up the northern flank and make sure counterattacks were about impossible.

The other mistake of him staying close is that allowed all the artillery divisions and brigades to go to work on first 4-5 attacks and ensure even with reserves he would lose. All his reserves losing all those battles in turned weakened them which was his second line and made overrunning the second line even easier as all those forces were already worn out and defeated from the frontline battles while I was hitting them with fresh corps...since the infantry did the initial work.

I really thought he would give up Kharkov instead of stand there as I had used barely any of my tank/mech corps on T115 so he had to know I had a ton of basically full MP units to hit him with in T116 in that area.

Peltons reserve system is interesting but once u anticipate it, it really isnt that effective IMO. I just look at has lines estimate which units are in reserve figure he will get 1-1.5 divisions of reserve activation on the initial assaults....then overkill a couple of his weakest defense hexes that I know even with reserves being funneled in he will lose. Works almost every time to pull the reserves into basically hopeless battles. Then once all his reserves are committed I tackle the battles that are going to be close and usually he wont have any reserves left...once in awhile 1 regiment I missed with react but that usually doesnt matter.

The best thing his system does for him is it usually means im facing a lvl 2 fort in the first line and lvl 1 fort in the second line....so takes alot of attacking elements to breach both as you effectively having to breach 20 miles of fortifications for each breakthrough which is why having the rifle corps start next to the German lines is critical and artillery divisions close as well. See what happens for T118, in T117 he ran for it Tula south more or less gave me 2-4 hexes all down the line. I managed to keep up but not really attack much, as no use wasting fuel and my trucks on the tanks to just catch him [8D]

Also some of his units took a real pounding so morale most likely isnt great among some of the divisions I pounded through on the north and south as I attacked them alot so was alot of losses in a row for one turn on several of his divisions. Be awhile before they recover fully if ever.

[Bob12]

Interesting that those 3 panzer and 3 panzergren divisions only had ~300 tanks between them, his armor must have been quite under-strength by this stage. Will be an interesting test of his crisis management skills for sure, looks like you might manage to grab the dnepr before the winter now.

[chaos45]

Considering im next to the dnepr in several spots by the end of T117....Im pretty sure I will be across soon. He already pulled some of the elite armored units from north and center to send south that had been stonewalling me in those locations. I noticed them absent from the frontlines when i opened T117....With the loss of all those divisions plus the basic decimation of 5-10 other divisions from casualties they took from the massive amount of assaults his line is thinning.....and his lines in the DZ area and south are only 1 single division per hex. Also noticed he thinned out his lines some by kursk to send troops south to plug the hole.....His entire defense line is compromised at this point...At rivers he has enough strength to force me to pull up 5-6 rifle corps to force my initial way across but anywhere he doesnt have a river I can take. So now its just a matter of forcing crossings and pounding the clear areas that go around rivers and each time I do he has to retreat as he doesnt have the strength to stop me once im over in the south especially. With the luga line starting to give way hes going to have trouble in the north soon as on T117 I got another hex across and even attacked one of his hexes further in and pushed them away to prevent him from digging in around my breach. Another couple turns and his whole line will be compromised. I predict his lines will eventually collapse unless he starts a general retreat soon..I have over 50 cav/mech/tank corps arrayed against him Tula south...and after losing 6 complete divisions and basically losing another 2 panzer divisions combat ineffective from losses in 1 week he wont have the mobile forces to counter or even really delay me. Space is the only thing that will save him, till he gives his units and army time to recover IMO. I think I will easily be over Dnepr before Mud, In all honesty I was almost over it in T117 thats how weak his lines are.

Also with 16 divisions rebuilding starting T118----his frontlines will get basically no replacements...which means for the next several turns every man he losses is just weakening his lines.....as those 16 divisions will be taking almost all his replacements for several turns plus not be worth sending into combat until im probably in poland.

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: chaos45

The grim reapers toll from the Kharkov Pocket.

very impressive, well constructed offensive. As you say later, those divisions are going to make a mess of Pelton's manpower and arms pts for quite a few turns as they rebuild.

I agree with your other comments about regimental reactions. As you say, you can usually find a sequence of 'safe' attacks where it doesn't matter what they do and burn them off (though this maybe a bit harder with the limits in .08). Also in a big battle a regiment makes less difference. On the other hand a division reserve reaction can make a difference and is less predictable.

[STEF78]

Great job!

I learned and used Pelton's way of defence in late war periods (end 1943, 1944 and 1945).

I've always found a time when the strength of russian army is so big that it doesn't work anymore. It happened to me in November 1943, in August 1944...

Once this battle is lost, the backbone of the german army is gone and you get the fully snowball effect.

[smokindave34]

The regimental reserve activations can be very effective for the axis....up to a point. Once the Red Army is solidly on the offensive I typically don't put any units on reserve activations but leave them behind the main line at full strength to try and limit a breakthrough. The Soviets have plenty of units they can use to activate reserves and reduce their strength before the arm/mech corps exploit the attack.

It also takes good battlefield intuition as the axis to decided when to stand and fight and when to pull back from winter '43 on. This is similar to the decisions the Soviet has to make in 41/42 but the major difference is the axis will have a very difficult time overcoming a bad decision.

[chaos45]

Petlon sent me a message about the Armaments points issue which I understand and it causing this disaster IDK, but this same issue also affected the Soviets in the early game pre all of the newer patches.

Either way alot of bugs have been found in playing this out and that good.

I do think even with a couple more CV per unit he would have lost this battle. My preponderance of force was just to much for the forces he had in the area to realistically stop. My Tank corps arent the pathetic whelps of 1942 anymore and with mech corps some of my tank army stacks are now 50+ CV so I can hasty attack even 10 cv german units out of the way. Something I dont think he really calculated in. As I had all the tank armies in their own stacks of 3 corps refittedd fueled and rested prior to this attack 3 corps per tank army......So it was a massively prepared attack. 2 corps of german infantry with tank regiments in reserve had no chance to stop 30+ soviet mobile corps from exploiting once the infantry/cav/artillery units did their work on the fortified hexes. Esp with complete air superiority and roughly 2k tactical bombers in support...the results were completely realistic IMO.

His mistake really was leaving the Kharkov bulge in his lines even a short pull back like 2 hexes probably could have prevented the encirclement....even a 1 hex retreat would have made the losses less catastrophic/less units in the pocket. Just my opinion from the guy that was hoping he stayed there, was surprised to see him still there on T116 when I opened the turn lol.

[chaos45]

T118 I think is game set match.....see if he can react to what im doing or not but I dont think he has the forces left....more pockets [8D]

So following on the success of T116 I have prepared a second encirclement operations for T118....once more Pelton didnt really retreat and in fact launched some limited counterattacks on 1 of my shock armies- which all failed lol.

In response I launch operation get over the Dnepr- Encircling almost all remaining axis forces south of DZ was only 1 MP short locking all his units down there period but a couple divisions of his might escape due to having no tank/mech corps with more than 47 MP...needed 48 MP to get the total lock.

Also I force a river crossing over the Dnepr right next to DZ getting 2 corps and a rifle division over.

In response to his limited counterattack just north of DZ- I launch a massive counter-offensive/push on Kiev with all mobile forces not involved in cleaning out the axis forces to the south. Which in turn encircles a German army and drives a deep penetration over two river lines with me eventually getting a zoc over the Dnepr to the south of Kiev.

The center he retreats I catch im and pound his lines some.

Far north I clear out most of the Luga line and encircle an additional German infantry division.

At end of T118 Axis units in Pockets-
Germans- 9 inf div, 1 panzer div, 1 cav bde, 2 panzer regiments
Romanians- 10 inf div
Hungarians- 1 inf div

Also have 1 defended hex over the dnpr and 2 areas I put zocs across to gain control both north and south of the DZ area. I dont think he has near enough forces to react to how powerful my offensive forces are and will have to just run for it leaving almost all the encircled units to their fate. I could be wrong stay tuned....

If all these encirclement's hold that should pretty well decimate his ability to resist anymore and force him into a quick retreat or risk even more encirclement.

[chaos45]

T117 General situation in the south- liquidated the German pocket at Kharkov and followed Retreating German units and Prepared for a new offensive scheduled for T118 to get across the Dnepr. As you can from the mass of units right in front of DZ Im preparing for a massive operations in T118.

[chaos45]

T117- North get another hex over the Luga- his line there is cracking as well his good units are being sent south due to the Kharkov disaster. Also the Finnish are collapsing more or less it will soon only take hasty attacks to clear them in the far north.