Panzer Battles

[irene]

Hope this is not too dumb a question.....Having my monthly game budget burning a hole in these OLD hands; I can afford either TotH or John Tillers Panzer Battles Normandy. Which is the best game will be, of course, a personal preference, however I would value any and all opinions as to the main differences between these 2 titles. Thanks very much, in advance. I have watched all available streams of both, as an aside. [:)]

[Gerry4321]

I bought bought and prefer TotH. PB is platoon level. It's early stages for the series yet. Look at the Blitz forum which has a lot of discussion about the handling of combat esp. wrt bunkers.

PB series excels in terms of history coverage - huge write-up of the selected conflict and the scenarios; scenarios are organized by date so you can follow the flow of a (large) unit (e.g. Division, and see all their fights).

[TheWombat_matrixforum]

Panzer Battles Normandy is the second in the series, after the one of the southern flank at Kursk. I like the game system quite a bit; it's low-level enough to showcase differences in tactics and equipment, but high-level enough to simulate formations and organizations with some fidelity. You can do some pretty large operations (Goodwood, Epsom, the landings, etc.) in whole or parceled out over several scenarios, and yet still have a very tactical feel, with tank engagements over four to ten hexes, that sort of thing. There are, as noted, disagreements about how the game system deals with fortifications, something that has always been an issue with Tiller's games. But many of the comments are really about whether you want a combat system that is fully exposed in its mathematics, so you can min/max each engagement, or whether you are ok with having your combat decisions be more impressionistic. It's sort of a philosophical debate more than an issue of bugs, though of course there may well be oddities in the system in either case.

I have not played TotH. It's a single-vehicle, single squad/fire team level game, and one that is built around abstraction to the extent that it can simulate any number of battles. PB:N is a platoon/company level game that is focused on one specific set of battles with very specific terrain and TO&Es. It isn't as flexible or universal but it's also less abstract, and operates at an entirely different level of simulation. Neither is "better," but they certainly cater to different tastes and expectations. I will say, too, that the Panzer Battles games are technically very solid and work with with a very wide range of computers, for what it's worth.

[dox44]

own both PBs and this.

i prefer TotH. reminds me of SL.

one other thing to add--scenario creation in TotH is easier.

i have a feeling you will have regrets no matter which game you purchase.

[Richie61]

Depends on what you are looking for.

TotH spans 1939-1945 European and Eastern Front.

PBN: Normandy 1944.

TotH: US, British, Soviet and German units (infantry, vehicles and guns).

PBN: US, British and German Normandy 1944 vehicles.

TotH: Map & scenario editor. You can make new maps, at least 100 maps already and you can build scenarios.

PBN: Normandy only maps, you can't make new maps with new terrain and you can make scenarios using their existing maps and equipment.

TotH: Solo vs AI games

PBN: Solo vs AI or PBEM.

TotH: Scenarios sizes. Very acceptable in size mostly small amounts of units to move.

PBN: Scenario sizes. Small to huge. You can spend a fair amount of time moving units, watching replays, OP fire against every unit as it moves and is targeted. I did a 170 turn PBEM test that took 20 to 30 minutes to move and fire each turn.

Now I have beta tested both games, so I know each one. I am a single vehicle, squad based tactical guy. I would look at TotH before PBN. I would also looking Squad Battles (pick a series) before PBN.
I also have both TotH, Panzer Battles and all the Squad Battle titles. If I was a solo guy, it would be TotH and then Squad Battles.

Again, I like squad sized fights [:)]

[dox44]

i beta tested SB 3 & 4. helped on patches 1 & 2. in fact, my father in law was the guy giving vietnamese commands. he lived in vietnam from 1960 until it fell.

then i got cancer and dropped out until a couple of years ago. cancer free 5 1/2 years...always wondered where SB would have gone with an open editor.

i can't remember if JT kept the commands in game or not...i don't have them anymore.

[MikeMarchant_ssl]

Really good to hear you're cancer free, casebier. Long may it remain so.


Best Wishes

Mike

[Hertston]

ORIGINAL: MikeMarchant_ssl
Really good to hear you're cancer free, casebier. Long may it remain so.

Indeedy.


In response to the OP, I have nothing like the playing time of the other guys, but for what it's worth I'd go for TotH, subject to other considerations such as preferred scale, etc. That would have surprised me enormously a week ago, as I very much on the fence about even buying it. I actually like both the Panzer Battles games a lot, although IMHO Kursk has the better scenarios of the two. It's easily Tiller's best series to date both in gameplay and presentation. The latter is significantly better than TotH, although the inclusion of the editor in the latter partly explains and outweighs that.

The reason for my preference is simply that TotH is more fun to play. Quite why, I'm not sure. The game design is excellent, yes, but it has more to do with the atmosphere the game creates. It just drags you in in that simultaneously loved and feared 'Jeez, it's 5 AM and I've got to be at work in a couple of hours' way. None of the Tiller games have really done that for me since Campaign Gettysburg.

[Duck Doc]

I have played a lot of Panzer Campaigns and Squad Battles and other JT games both solo and PBEM. I gave up because the Automatic Defensive Fire AI routine is so arbitrary it completely frustrates me. I enjoyed playing JT's games using phased play a bunch better but it is imparctical for PBEM play. JT games really shine for PBEM and for the historical detail. Gazillion years ago I played Panzer Blitz a bit but never got into ASL. Maybe I will get TotH just for old time's sake and for the joy of phased play again. Who knows? Glad to see the wheel turning and the computer finally doing homage to an original war game classic. Hat's off to the designer,

[dox44]

very kind...really means a lot.

thanks,
casebier

[dox44]

thanks. it really does mean a lot you guys. i never knew that before I got sick. that someone
just patting on the back "hang in there"...

casebier

[dox44]

never played Panzer Campaigns. that was while i was out for the most part. i lost my original PB in moves. i still keep PL next to my desk. i play proud and few & eagles strike on the last beta disks JT sent the group.

i've since bought AOTR about 6 months ago. i play PB kursk more than PB normandy but both are top shelf.

i'll stop now.

[Richie61]

Casebier,

That is super awesome news about you being cancer free! It's been 18 years cancer free for my Mother!

[Richie61]

ORIGINAL: casebier

never played Panzer Campaigns. that was while i was out for the most part. i lost my original PB in moves. i still keep PL next to my desk. i play proud and few & eagles strike on the last beta disks JT sent the group.

i've since bought AOTR about 6 months ago. i play PB kursk more than PB normandy but both are top shelf.

i'll stop now.

Red Victory is the best SB title. 90 plus really good scenarios and all the latest Tiller hot key short cuts [:)]

[kylania]

Red Victory > Battles of Normandy? Either one of those better to start with?

[irene]

Hello
Everyone, thanks for the truly great and helpful information. I already owned all the SB titles and PB Kursk. In the end, I just purchased PB Normandy and it's fantastic. But, with enough whining, I may be able to get my banker to fund TotH later this week. Again, thanks for all the input. [:)]

[giffin]

ORIGINAL: Richie61

ORIGINAL: casebier

never played Panzer Campaigns. that was while i was out for the most part. i lost my original PB in moves. i still keep PL next to my desk. i play proud and few & eagles strike on the last beta disks JT sent the group.

i've since bought AOTR about 6 months ago. i play PB kursk more than PB normandy but both are top shelf.

i'll stop now.

Red Victory is the best SB title. 90 plus really good scenarios and all the latest Tiller hot key short cuts [:)]

I picked up Squad Battles Red Victory and Ed's great looking MOD just 1 week ago. Been playing TOTH and haven't touched Red Victory since it came in.

[Richie61]

ORIGINAL: kylania

Red Victory > Battles of Normandy? Either one of those better to start with?

IMO it would be Red Victory. I love squad battle games. [:)]

[FroBodine]

Whether you prefer Panzer Battles or Squad Battles or Tigers on the Hunt, you have to admit that the Tiller games have an extremely wonderful and useful line of sight and range of movement highlight option.

One click to activate line of sight, then click on any hex and you see what you can see from that hex.

Same with movement. One click and then click on one of your units to see exactly how far and where it can move in that turn. Of course, that changes dynamically based on where you move, e.g. if you move through a hedgerow, that reduces your remaining movement for the turn, and the highlighted hexes change accordingly.

I have not seen these done better.

I love both Squad Battles (I have a bunch of them) and Panzer Battles Normandy. I will soon get Tigers on the Hunt, but I'm waiting to see how the movement and fire information shakes out a little first.

[kylania]

There's such a lack of videos about these games. I found a single video about the Panzer Battles Normandy video, but it was in Spanish, so i understood only "morale" and "fatigue".

As for movement and fire information for TotH, it's intentionally nil. The designer obscures that information because he doesn't want his game to become a spreadsheet game supposedly. Now, it's entirely possible to have that data available and even toggle display of it for those who want it and hide it from those who don't, but for now it's all a narrative based mystery.