Don't Look So SMG!!

[john g]

Originally posted by Buzzard45
I found this on a website:
Hmmm? Same rounds as an MP40. According to the OOBs The MP40 and Lanchester share the same Accuracy/Kill rating of 8/3. The MP28, M3 SMG and Sten share the rating of 4/3. Or half the accuracy. the Thompson? 8/4. Misc small arms 8/2. The encyclopedia changes these ratings somewhat, but that is based on the range at which it has an unadjusted (I could be corrected on this) hit chance of 50%. So still twice the effective ranges for similar weapons using interchangeable ammo.

If you have a problem with the difference in accuracy, consider the fact that the mp38/40 was a carefully machined work of art, while sten guns could be made out of muffler pipe. By the end of the war the UK was paying less than $5 for each sten gun, while the early war thompsons cost them more than $200 each. Even now you can buy kits of parts to make your own sten gun, they are the easiest of the smg class to make in a home shop.
thanks, John.

[Marek Tucan]

While you all are discussing mostly the STENs here, here is one example:

After the assassination of Reinhrd Heydrich, seven SOE operatives (four of them participated directly in the action against Heydrich) were sieged in a church in Prague. They were armed with STENs (actually the original intent of the assassination was to shoot Heydrich with STEN, but it got jammed, so the other member of the team had to use handmade bomb he was carrying).
The germas used police, army and SS troops, armed mostly with pistols/MP40s and grenades.
In the result all seven SOE operatives (six of them being Cyech, one Slovakian) got killed - four of them commited suicide after running out of ammo, one killed by grenade, one got injured by MP-40s and died during the transfer to the hospital, one got seriously injured by grenade and MG-34s firing from the other building through windows, he commited suicide. Thus the SMGs participated only on one kill.
The germans got about eighty injured, no dead. All injuries were caused by STENs and mostly they were only light. Assuming that SOE WAS trining its men to hit something it seems that STENs really weren't too effective...

[Irinami]

I stand corrected, Cyricist; the argument of era and of the weapon lacking useful sights makes sense. Though I can't imagine there weren't aiming techniques used. Probably similar to what's called "over the barrel" or "over the sights" shooting nowadays.

Which, combined with a cheap flimsy weapon, would leave one pointing the gun at a spot and hosing... which would lead to results like Marek Tucan's story. Suppressing fire, the casualties from which are usually light if it can't be sustained.

More to come, I found a new favourite unit...

[Irinami]

Yes, Hungary has some neat stuff hidden in their OOB. I was playing a long WWII scenario and needed to limit myself to under 100 units total. I wanted to do Germany... but didn't have the points to buy a German Engineer platoon. So I poked and poked, and the cheapest were the Hungarians.

Wow!! They don't have the best training, but they have something on their side. The 9mm M39 and later 9mm M43 SMG's. They have the same stats as the MP38/40, and are issued to Engineers, Paratroopers, and later to SMG Squads. Some research on this weapon shows me they were similar to some Police carbines: A rifle-sized weapon firing pistol ammunition. (Which, if the weapon can fire on automatic, fits the technical description of an SMG.) These things were roughly 36 inches (1m, +/-) long, making them less than ideal for urban combat were it not for the automatic fire. (Compare that to the roughly 2 feet (0.66m) of the MP38/40.) Still, being available early-war, these things are a great advantage!

[J_C_Caesar]

Well I have to agree on the STEN being crap. It was simply mass produced from a hurried design in a stage of the war Britian thought it was going to be invaded and needed lots of men with guns fast.

Even an untrained zombie could hit something at 10 paces with tens of rounds fired out of a rattle trap peice of pipe. Providing they all come out in under 10 seconds. And if you had 10 blind grandpa's firing 10 stens thats a wall of lead that would hopefully kill something before they were masacred. They were nothing more then a stop gap weapon that were tossed as soon as they had time to find a better replacement. Where as the Thompson and MP's were designed and tested to work effectively.

The sten had no barrel worth speaking of, and certainly no where convientant for one to brace it without burning your hand after one clip, except by the magazine. Where as the Thompson did have the fore grip with with which to steady it, and hold it down. The Barrel was longer, and with short burst it is perfectly able to be kept within the general vicinity of where your firing, in fact I recall a WW2 footage shot of a US marine burning off an entire clip standing with the Thompson pulled into his shoulder with negligble rise or wandering. Even if he was only putting all his rounds in the 5x5 metre bush at 50 yards, it's still better then the 50x50 metre forest at 50 yards your hitting with your trusty sten. (figures have been exagerrated for dramatic affect and have actually not been tested by the writer but is willing to give it a go if anyone has a thompson and a sten.)

As for me I am Australian and the OWEN smg is my favorite, thought not depicted in the game as quite the gun it turned out to be. Aus troops were still using it in the vietnam war because it was reliable, accurate with a dang good rate of fire.

[Belisarius]

Knee-jerk reaction: Wasn't the Owen one really heavy piece to lug around?

[Goblin]

Psst. Hey Bel.

Goblin

[Belisarius]

Originally posted by Goblin
Psst. Hey Bel.

Goblin

I'm scared now

[Irinami]

Hey, I heard the Swedish K (sounds like a user name!!) was as heavy as a G3, but tended to be preferred... because it was reasonably accurate, automatic fire, you could lug much more ammo and it was smaller and handier in general than any rifle. And you could bury it in the ground or submerge it and the sucker would still fire.

[Belisarius]

"K"? Do you by chance mean the AK4? :p




(this is a Norwegian sample, as the stock is brown instead of black)

That's identical to the H&K G3. Heavy (5.3 kg), but larger calibre (7.62mm) with good accuracy and excellent penetration. (My friends who were unfortunate enough to not get the AK5 told me they could shoot straight through at least 10mm of rolled armor...) Very durable as well. These are almost all distributed to the Home Guard.

Here's teh "new" hotness:



Standard 5.56x45mm NATO ammo, 3.90 kg.

[Irinami]

Nope Belisarius, I mean the Swedish K, AKA Carl Gustav (not the modern AT weapon), AKA M45. Actually developed late in WWII, it saw service with many nations (stolen, copied, licenced, or bought outright) including the US Navy SEALs (and probably other services) in Vietnam.

[Belisarius]

Ah. That piece.

I'm actually not too familiar with the "K" designation, the only one I've heard is "Kpist m/45". Kulsprutepistol = bullet spraying pistol, model 1945.

Some Swedes with more service experience than me might fill me in on this, but the only "Carl Gustav" weapon I've seen is the AT "Grg m/48". (Grg= granatgevär = literally grenade rifle; kinda misleading) It's not new at all, it's been in use since the '50s.

Anyway, now I know what you were talking about. It's actually slightly lighter than the G3 (4.5 kg vs. ~5.3 kg), but with the advantages you described above.

[VikingNo2]

My favorite SMG is a Flamthrower LOL

[tracer]

Originally posted by VikingNo2
My favorite SMG is a Flamthrower LOL

...tough to beat it in close-quarters fighting.

[Irinami]

Originally posted by VikingNo2
My favorite SMG is a Flamthrower LOL

[LordCucumber]

Originally posted by VikingNo2
My favorite SMG is a Flamthrower LOL

Hmmm BBQ anyone?

[String]

I'm sticking to my guns here. Every professional soldier I've ever spoken to on the topic insists you aim every single weapon, all the time. (Sure, there are times you can't, like spraying around a corner... but then, that's highly discouraged.) SMG's specifically included. I think we're just gonna' have to differ here.

Having actually done army service myself i can tell you that firing bursts over a long distance 75m and more is pretty useless unless you have a bipod or a tripod under your weapon. That is because when you push the trigger maybe the first round or two fly where you aimed them but the rest just scatter..

and i was using an assault rifle that's accurate over 300 metres

Ofcourse you aim with your gun, its bloody hard to hit anything when fired from under the shoulder or hip.. but thats just to point the barrel in the direction of the enemy.

In urban combat you rarely use your usual dioptric sights, instead night sights are pulled up (those large thingies with phosphorous dots on them) as to ease quick aiming with both eyes open.

You only aim carefully over longer distances.. and always fire single shots... unless there are really enemies walking in 19th century style lines towards you..

[gainiac]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but the definition of a submachine gun includes the fact that it uses pistol ammunition. That's why the "MP-Fired from a Thompson, it has somewhere around 12-18 inches, if memory serves correctly, to build up pressure. This pressure increases it's muzzle velocity. That increases it's accuracy (which is also quite dependent on the operator) as well as it's impact/killing/stopping power.

Regarding thopmson accuracy;

Thompsons were know as "Typewriters" because if you knew what you were doing you could write yer name with the gun.

Thompsons are cool!!!!!

Martin

[Jchaser]

Having fired both the Thompson and the mp40 I think i might be able to give you a little insite to you question.

The thompson.

The weapon is heavy it feels like a rifle when you bring it up to your shoulder to fire but felt comfortable. I was able at 100 yards to keep a good group with short bursts of 4-5 rounds. Those bursts were easy to get off. I was able to fire single shoot easily too and they were quite acurate. The weapon climb was not bad at all mostly due to the weight of the gun helping to contol it.

The mp40

Very light. At the same range i was not able to keep a good grouping due to the fact that the ROF was to high the **** thing was spitting bullets like a SOB. The barrel climb was crazy and i'm not a small guy if any small planes had flown over our range i might have got me one(ok well it wasn't that bad).

Tactical use.

After having fired both weapons I would tend to say if i was in combat with the thompson i would aim due to the fact that i know that i would hit what i aimed at up to over 150yards. I can't say the same for the Mp40.



As for the sten gun i would compare it to the mp40 due to weight and ammo.

[Irinami]

Thanks Jchaser, and welcome to the forums.

I believe your observations, but it still smacks of the same ignorance (I don't mean that in the negative way!) to say that you wouldn't aim an MP40 or a Sten, the same ignorance that people say there were no European martial arts. There's got to be some technique to putting the bullets where you want them... however, just as martial arts are based around the qualities and limitations of the weapon, I would certainly concede that "aiming" a Sten or MP40 may barely resemble what you think of when you think of "aiming." Id est, if the weapon fires so fast that you cannot get single-shots off and is so light that these bursts are spread out over a broad area, then aiming is a matter of best choosing which broad area to spead these rounds over, rather than a matter of choosing which 0.45 inch spot to drop your Thompson bullet onto.

My $0.02 (which I've given a lot, I need to check my account )