Question for experts

[Jonathan Pollard]

Can anyone explain how it's theoretically possible for the German 297th infantry division to reach Kiev in one move? It's in sustained offensive mode with no focus. If you say it's impossible, you're wrong because my PBEM opponent did it against me.

I personally can't explain it, but my opponent gave a hint: "German infantry can run surprisingly fast when given ambiguous orders."

[Gunnulf]

If the AG commander positive relationship passed a bonus roll for 6th Army, plus last turn Brauchitsch's ambiguous order decision was taken for AGS (which grants a bonus to AP the next turn, but i don't have the amount to hand) I think he would have just enough AP to make it, but I think only if the divisions following behind step forward and manage to evaporate your 228 Div, or shift it south giving his lead division a clear path and full movement (less the -AP for passing through the ZOC. In fact so long as the 228 Div evaporates he only needs to go 3 hexes to take Kiev as you have no other units ZOC nearby, but with the above 2 bonuses he should be able to go 4 hexes anyway I think.
If his 297 Inf did take part in the breakthrough battle it would have to be over pretty quick for him to have enough AP left even with the bonuses so I suspect he cunningly left it out.

[Jonathan Pollard]

The 297th actually entered the Kiev hex and did not do any fighting. 228th was hit twice by a different unit but still had 3200 men when it retreated to the hex SW of Kiev. It was still at that hex when 297th entered Kiev. 297th did gain ZOC control over Kiev prior to physically entering the hex.

EDIT: It looks like having the ambiguous orders event does give enough extra AP to explain the move, thanks for your help Gunnulf. I haven't played the Germans enough yet to realize just how fast the German infantry divisions can go.

[Gunnulf]

So if thats the case I think it breaks down as each of the 4 clear/city hexes are costing him 25 AP for the basic terrain + 10 AP for the ZOC if he gets them all the way (if it was ZOC without a unit nearby only 5 AP). So thats 140 AP. But on top of that if he moves through at least the first battle hex after the fight he will incur further AP hit depending on how long that battle lasted.
If he is on base 100 + 20 Army Bonus + AG bonus from ambiguous orders (at least 20 AP but might be as high as 40 AP to be honest, somebody will know) then he could hit that requirement.

[warspite1]

So when, or under what conditions, does von Brauchitsch issue such orders?

[Gunnulf]

Its a decision that will sometimes come up randomly, through I think you must at least have a positive relationship. Not got the text to hand but the general idea is due to ambiguous orders from the Fuhrer you are able to interpret orders differently/less ridgedly, essentially giving your divisions more freedom of movement within the now liberally interpreted scope of the usually strict orders, hence the extra APs.
If you have a negative relationship with Von B then I believe there are also decisions that will lose you APs as he will not trust you and restrict your freedom, though you can attempt to mitigate these effects by expending APs to argue your case with him.
Furthermore there are also random events (not decisions) where the Fuhrer takes a particularly close interest in an army and units lose -40AP due to his micromanagement due. You will only see these through the reports I think, there are not explicitly announced.

[Steve110]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

So when, or under what conditions, does von Brauchitsch issue such orders?

I think its when you have a good relationship with Von B, there is a % chance of ambiguous orders event appearing in your decisions. You then have to choose which AG gets the bonus, with a PP cost accordingly.

Cheers
Steve

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Steve110

ORIGINAL: warspite1

So when, or under what conditions, does von Brauchitsch issue such orders?

I think its when you have a good relationship with Von B, there is a % chance of ambiguous orders event appearing in your decisions. You then have to choose which AG gets the bonus, with a PP cost accordingly.

Cheers
Steve

warspite1

That explains it - I have never had anything but an awful relationship with von Brauchitsch. I didn't think it was possible to do otherwise....

[Gunnulf]

Obviously you want everybody on positive where possible, but Von B can have a particularly damaging knock on effect on many other relationships. I try to boost that relationship where possible as its overall a false economy not too. If nothing else there are some good decisions that boost him at the expense of relationships with Jodl, Himmler and others who you can afford to have horrible relationship with to minimal tangible effect. But of course you will want to draw on this bank of positivity sometimes to keep Wagner and Gerke from becoming too much of a problem. Its perfectly possible to have all of your key relationships good or better with a bit of juggling, and once they are the -1pp and -2pp effect that better relationships have on your decisions makes if increasingly easy to keep them this way.

[warspite1]

Wow - I never knew. Always seemed to me that keeping him happy hurt the theatre commanders..or someone. Certainly keeping the theatre commanders and the rail and truck men happy is waaaay beyond my understanding.

You should get a job in the diplomatic corps! [;)]

[Gunnulf]

My degree was International Relations

Keeping Von B happy will give you these freedom of movement decisions, plus the Smooth the Way decisions where he offers to speak to your theatre commanders and improve relations with one of them on your behalf. Potentially gives a good boost (though that he has to spend the time doing so annoys him a little and your relationship will take a small hit. But generally cost effective boost to your theatre cmdr relations, moreso than the Field visit decisions.
In short there are all sorts of ways you will draw on your relationship with Von B and you certainly should try to keep him happy, and if he drops into negative territory try to get him back. He is your boss after all.
Keeping Von B net positive with at least a little wiggle room is a priority for me, next the theatre commanders, then Gerke, then Wagner. Hitler and Goering don't have so many chances to change really but I'll try to keep Goering positive by bowing to most of his demands and not wasting PPs fighting him, except maybe for high octane fuel. Overall by August unless a run of bad luck everybody will be good except Wagner, and 1 or 2 superb theatre commander relationships. Once you get those high you can get most armies with AP bonuses on most turns. Which as we saw above once combined with Von Bs effects, and also focus cards, can really hurt the Soviets with big breakouts.

[barkhorn45]

Which lead's me to a problem I have had since the release.
Von B.was the oberkommando des heeres,Halder was basically his chief of staff.
Von B.has some etherel command position in game which is not historical.
I have received responces that state he was basically a yes man and worthless,okay but he was still "historically"OKH
there's no getting over that FACT.
In the same response Kleist is mentioned as the same kind of toadie but he is in the same position he was historically.
Why not have his chief of staff in game then instead of him for the same reason?
This is a design decision that continues to make me scratch my head.

[lancer]

Hi,

Von. B triggers various decisions at different relationship levels but they fire on a % probability so their timing is variable.

On the downside there is 'Flip Flops' (rel < -5 & >-16), 'Countermanded!' (rel <-15 & >-25) and 'Pressure from above' (rel < -24 and Hitler rel < 0)

On the upside, 'Smooth the Way' (rel > 9 & < 25) and 'Ambiguous Orders' (rel > 24).

There are additional decisions that relate to Von.B that enable you to manage your relationship directly that also trigger at different levels.

If you've opted for a 'Military Indepedence' Strategy you definitely want to keep him onside as he's your main supporter with Hitler and you risk getting fired if he's upset as well as Hitler. Bunch of decisions around that one.


Hi barkhorn,

The German Command structure on paper was very different to the practical day to day reality which the game aims to model.

Cheers,
Cameron

[barkhorn45]

I'm sorry but the fact remain"s that von b(easier than spelling his name out) was the overall commander of the german
army not Halder this is fact.I would like to see some sources showing Halder"s day to day command of the the eastern forces?
Sorry to criticize but this has bothered me for awhile,also the lack of corp hq's,17th army having 15 div.under command,please this isn't the Russian army.

[Jonathan Pollard]

My opponent said he had 150 AP for his infantry division that took Kiev, so I wondered whether 150 implied superhuman walking ability. The typical human walking speed is 5km per hour, and it would be possible with the 150 AP to go 7 hexes on a road unopposed in your own territory in 4 days which would be 210km. It would mean walking slightly over 10 hours per day. It would allow for 8 hours of sleep and 6 hours of rest per day, which I think is reasonable.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Gunnulf

My degree was International Relations

Keeping Von B happy will give you these freedom of movement decisions, plus the Smooth the Way decisions where he offers to speak to your theatre commanders and improve relations with one of them on your behalf. Potentially gives a good boost (though that he has to spend the time doing so annoys him a little and your relationship will take a small hit. But generally cost effective boost to your theatre cmdr relations, moreso than the Field visit decisions.
In short there are all sorts of ways you will draw on your relationship with Von B and you certainly should try to keep him happy, and if he drops into negative territory try to get him back. He is your boss after all.
Keeping Von B net positive with at least a little wiggle room is a priority for me, next the theatre commanders, then Gerke, then Wagner. Hitler and Goering don't have so many chances to change really but I'll try to keep Goering positive by bowing to most of his demands and not wasting PPs fighting him, except maybe for high octane fuel. Overall by August unless a run of bad luck everybody will be good except Wagner, and 1 or 2 superb theatre commander relationships. Once you get those high you can get most armies with AP bonuses on most turns. Which as we saw above once combined with Von Bs effects, and also focus cards, can really hurt the Soviets with big breakouts.

warspite1

Thanks. I shall try and pay more attention to the "vain and cowardly nincompoop" in future [:)]

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: lancer

Hi,

Von. B triggers various decisions at different relationship levels but they fire on a % probability so their timing is variable.

On the downside there is 'Flip Flops' (rel < -5 & >-16), 'Countermanded!' (rel <-15 & >-25) and 'Pressure from above' (rel < -24 and Hitler rel < 0)

On the upside, 'Smooth the Way' (rel > 9 & < 25) and 'Ambiguous Orders' (rel > 24).

There are additional decisions that relate to Von.B that enable you to manage your relationship directly that also trigger at different levels.

If you've opted for a 'Military Indepedence' Strategy you definitely want to keep him onside as he's your main supporter with Hitler and you risk getting fired if he's upset as well as Hitler. Bunch of decisions around that one.


Hi barkhorn,

The German Command structure on paper was very different to the practical day to day reality which the game aims to model.

Cheers,
Cameron

warspite1

From what I've read I think it does that well. The fact that if you try and get von Brauchitsch to argue with the Fuhrer you are almost certainly onto a loser is a nice touch historically.

[Gunnulf]

ORIGINAL: Jonathan Pollard

My opponent said he had 150 AP for his infantry division that took Kiev, so I wondered whether 150 implied superhuman walking ability. The typical human walking speed is 5km per hour, and it would be possible with the 150 AP to go 7 hexes on a road unopposed in your own territory in 4 days which would be 210km. It would mean walking slightly over 10 hours per day. It would allow for 8 hours of sleep and 6 hours of rest per day, which I think is reasonable.

8 hours sleep and 6 hours rest per day? I suspect you haven't been an infanteer? That sounds like the most luxurious war ever! The sleep and rest will definately evaporate with a multitude of tasks and distractions/skirmishes along the way.
But yes that of 50+km distance would be technically possible and sustainable for a few days against no opposition bearing in mind that the infantry would largely be marching in light order with support from horse and motorised equipment carrying heavy weapons and logistics.
However it certainly would start to rack up the fatigue at that pace for too much longer, and this isn't against zero opposition. As per the sequence of events in your example they would have to wait for their other sister divisions to achieve the breakthough before they start, and they are already 50km behind the line of 297 ID. So effectively, the other divisions are marching 50Km to the front, then fighting through to secure another 50km zone. And only then does 297 begin its march in ernest so potentially they only have 2 days to march through 200km, engage in light skirmishes and secure a relatively large city, albeit without organised resistance. That might be pushing it. I've done 100km with light kit rough terrain in 1 day, and could have pushed on but pretty glad we didnt have to do another 100km the next The poor landsers definately had a rough deal having to march 1000km to Moscow.
However, the system requires a slight suspension of timelines and concurrent activities and is an abstraction.

[Jonathan Pollard]

ORIGINAL: Gunnulf
However, the system requires a slight suspension of timelines and concurrent activities and is an abstraction.

The Operational Art of War is far more realistic in this regard, it automatically deducts operation points from non-moving units whenever attacks by other units are resolved to reflect the time that the non-moving units spend waiting for the attack to be resolved. The disadvantage of the TOAW system is that it forces you to move as many of your units as you can before resolving any attacks.