Some design questions...

[AlbertN]

I tinkered now with this game some - repeating through the first turns trying to improve.

I've seen a few things which left me pretty perplexed though.

1- Soviets are extremely strong, yes I am speaking in the first turns of the game (that means 8-12 days after the Barbarossa) or I am not very able to attack (But it is not exactly rocket science there). Soviet Infantry divisions able to stop German Panzer divisions, in plains? That left me quite astonished.

2- Oil shortages that early. I understand logistics turned out to be an issue for Germany, later on, when well in depth in Russia. But having panzers having oil shortage at Lvov or Vilnius?

Currently, I am not even sure how this game got that high ratings around on web-magazines and such; and surely the "decision" aspect is interesting.
But right now I have ample perplexities and I have the vibrant suspect to have trashed my euros when I bought this game, paraded as a funny one when to me it looks quite ahistorical and frustrating.

[Philippeatbay]

With regards to your first point, first turn Soviets tend to die in droves.

You might want to take a look at the screenshots in this thread about what the first turn German offensive can look like. And it's not the most effective way of setting up the initial attack.


tm.asp?m=4020944

[AlbertN]

Well the guy who replied to that nailed it - the Soviets are very strong.
That is something similar to what I achieved - but the German offensive slugs off in turn 2-3 already and it turns pratically into what looks a "trench" war more than mobile WW2 warfare.

If I look at historical results, the Germans are well behind the schedule pratically anywhere.

[Vic]

Hi,

Here is a quick metric comparison of VP obtained by human player versus the AI.

As you can see there is quite a big bandwidth. At round 10 some German players are still at 40VP or less while others are at 60VP or even more.

Make sure to make use of all the bonusses you can get. That means assigning focus to your PGs and playing the commanders hand cards, assigning tactical air support and artillery support.

For initial games and learning the ropes it might not be a bad idea to turn on the 'easy' variant.

Best wishes,
Vic

[AlbertN]

I doubt it would help though to learn with some "cheats" to my favor in general.

Given I play any game by the philosophy that things should be as they are (as per the "Enhanced AI" which simply boost by x% the strength / production / whatnot of their controlled powers / nations are a big no go.)
And in most cases I see the AI itself as learning the ropes to play in Multiplayer vs human opponents (hence the quest for relatively complicated games with a good layer of detail).

[RandomAttack]

Bottom line still appears to be the Soviets are "buffed" to compensate for the AI, most visibly in the early turns. They still get full entrenchment and some decent HQ/leader bonuses (although the leader bonus is offset by early turn penalties)-- I do not see the Soviets "dying in droves" the first turn, although you can get some small encirclements. Best you can hope to do is steer their retreats to give you some openings. They just retreat, retreat, retreat. It's relatively hard to "kill" a unit. I personally have made the case that this is too ahistorical, and the Germans SHOULD run roughshod the first few turns, but apparently this is a minority view. I would rather see MANY more Soviet reinforcements (say, after turn 10 or so) to prevent the German "snowball effect" than the current slog through the initial forces. In other words, the Germans should OWN the Soviets the first few turns, but it should still be very difficult to almost impossible to actually "win". In a nutshell, the Soviets had more soldiers than the Germans had bullets. IMO, the "Barbarossa experience" for the Germans should be:
1) Initial exuberance and feelings of invincibility at the mighty Wehrmacht crushing the inferior (initial) forces; followed by
2) A little concern that, well now, we really DO have a loooong way to go, fuel is tight, and the Soviets may not be "good", but there's a lot freakin' more of them than we THOUGHT there were; followed by
3) Oh crap, what the hell did we get ourselves into!

I can use the editor to get the feel of #1, and wish I could mod in some more Soviet reinforcements to get the feel of #3.

[baloo7777]

I have to agree with Cohen and RandomAttack as to how I FEEL when playing this game. BUT only because I am a terrible player as vs my several human opponents...I never really played much vs the AI...and these human opponents were (are?) very very good. AND, playing both as the Russian and the German against the same opponent, I've found that his side (whichever) seems invincible, and my side can't even win a 5-1 battle from 3 sides with 100 AP's. I have even had the distinction of having Stalin go paranoid 2 turns in a row (the 2nd turn he was like a 15 and I apparently rolled a 4)! My real point is, that our perceptions of the game from just a few times played through, can be very skewed, especially when luck and skill levels are not comparable. But I still love the game. As an aside, I have found in playing ATG (another game by Vic), that it sometimes takes a long time to learn the nuances of play against human players.

[dhhd]

ORIGINAL: RandomAttack

Bottom line still appears to be the Soviets are "buffed" to compensate for the AI, most visibly in the early turns. They still get full entrenchment and some decent HQ/leader bonuses (although the leader bonus is offset by early turn penalties)-- I do not see the Soviets "dying in droves" the first turn, although you can get some small encirclements. Best you can hope to do is steer their retreats to give you some openings. They just retreat, retreat, retreat. It's relatively hard to "kill" a unit. I personally have made the case that this is too ahistorical, and the Germans SHOULD run roughshod the first few turns, but apparently this is a minority view. I would rather see MANY more Soviet reinforcements (say, after turn 10 or so) to prevent the German "snowball effect" than the current slog through the initial forces. In other words, the Germans should OWN the Soviets the first few turns, but it should still be very difficult to almost impossible to actually "win". In a nutshell, the Soviets had more soldiers than the Germans had bullets. IMO, the "Barbarossa experience" for the Germans should be:
1) Initial exuberance and feelings of invincibility at the mighty Wehrmacht crushing the inferior (initial) forces; followed by
2) A little concern that, well now, we really DO have a loooong way to go, fuel is tight, and the Soviets may not be "good", but there's a lot freakin' more of them than we THOUGHT there were; followed by
3) Oh crap, what the hell did we get ourselves into!

I can use the editor to get the feel of #1, and wish I could mod in some more Soviet reinforcements to get the feel of #3.

And here one runs into a core problem of WWII wargames, at whatever level. The Germans were tactically superior at various levels, due in large part to training of leaders, but logistically and economically they had huge issues, and strategically were hobbled by the defects of the Nazi German system, caused in large part by various aspects of Hitler's personality - and the whole war was a gamble, and not one with great odds. Meanwhile, at the beginning of Barbarossa, the Germans did really, really well tactically, and the Soviets dropped the ball hard. It's hard to simulate all this, though, because the tactical superiority/strategic inferiority of the Germans is analogous to player skill - your average player is going to be far less competent than your average German officer at whatever level, but you'd have to be pretty bad to make the strategic blunders a certain Bohemian corporal did. However, the logistic/economic problems are far more mechanical.

A game, at whatever level, that accurately modeled the logistical and economic problems of the Germans were would require great playing from the German player for things to go historically - and they still lost. Games that are more balanced tend to favour the German player, though, especially on a strategic level - it's not super hard to avoid big blunders like Stalingrad ("I know, let's send our highly mobile but outnumbered forces into an urban environment that prevents mobility and rewards numbers!") or Kursk ("I know, let's commit armour against deep prepared defences when the enemy knows we're coming!") or the response to the landings ("OK, we have to get directions to release armoured reserves, but don't wake the boss up!") or whatever. Meanwhile, it's hard to model how the Soviet generals in June '41 were prevented from pulling back - it's not like withdrawing to a reasonable line is going to result in a game dev coming by your house and shooting your dog. The massive German advances and huge Soviet losses early on were, in game terms, a result of great play by the Germans and bad play by the Soviets. It's like if I was Soviets against some PBEM monster who never makes a wrong move as Germans.

That said, I do see what you're saying. The arc of the game I've experienced as the Germans vs the AI is 1. strong Soviet resistance, but it's possible to pull off some encirclements and get somewhere, 2. period of relative ease, 3. tricky bit where the Soviets have built up a line, 4. another easy bit, 5. mud and snow slow you down but it's possible to gut through and grab the final objectives. Meanwhile, as the Soviets, there are periods of dead air where you're not getting any reinforcements.

Soviet reinforcements spaced out more and the ability to buy more (as opposed to just redeploy) reinforcements would help make it harder for the Germans later on. Perhaps add a "Help! More Armies" button for the Soviet player, which would make teh VP system more relevant. Some incentive for the Soviet player to not withdraw would help - timed VPs, maybe, to show the need for the Soviets to hold ground while industry was moved east

[RandomAttack]

Very good points! Since I play SP exclusively I would really like the option (as German) to give the Soviet more armies later on. Or perhaps an ability to mod it. Agree it's a tough problem, and I'm still enjoying the game.

[dhhd]

ORIGINAL: RandomAttack

Very good points! Since I play SP exclusively I would really like the option (as German) to give the Soviet more armies later on. Or perhaps an ability to mod it. Agree it's a tough problem, and I'm still enjoying the game.

DC:B is great largely because the management side of things and the focus on logistics reduce the pitfalls a lot of WWII games fall into - namely, compensating for the fact that your average player is not on the level established by Prussian military tradition by reducing the fact that the Germans had a government characterized by infighting and duplication of effort, and logistics that ranged from "barely adequate" to "woeful". The fact that you can't keep everyone happy shows the latter, and way that your PGs can grind to a halt even when the weather is fine is great. Combined with the fact that the game doesn't avoid ugly stuff like so many do, it all helps to avoid the game from falling into the "Wehraboo" cliches that unfortunately pop up.

German difficulty might be improved by having Hitler meddle more (insisting you do XYZ in the next few turns, say - this is where a more robust VP system would be good) and expanding the role of minor characters - right now, for instance, it seems like Himmler, Keitel, and Jodl are the equivalents of a dump stat in an RPG - why would you ever prioritize them? Or, to be really nasty, if the Germans hit the point where victory starts to snowball, units start getting withdrawn and replacements get withheld - after all, the war in the east is as good as won, and those men are needed for North Africa and Sealion.

[Vic]

ORIGINAL: RandomAttack
I would really like the option (as German) to give the Soviet more armies later on.

Playing on 'challenging' or 'hard' will do exactly that.

Best wishes,
Vic

[RandomAttack]

Vic,
I didn't realize increased difficulties gave more reinforcements-- but they also give combat & movement bonuses that I'm not fond of. The current difficulty options/combinations seem primarily to buff the existing stats. I don't think the Soviets should get "better" units, just *more* of them (IF the first couple of turns become more decisive).

The 100 pt/% entrenchment thing in the early turns (SP only, not PBEM) really bugs me most of all because it DOUBLES the defense number (e.g., from 80 to 160). Meanwhile the big "special first turn bonus" effectively jumps offensive power only a small amount (e.g., from 8 to 12). So we can fuss around with the offensive bonuses but they are trivial compared to a 100% entrenchment bonus. If I play hotseat the difference in my performance as the Germans just on round 2 (before the Soviets get to do anything) is significantly better than against the AI.

I still think there should be a mode where SP modifiers = PBEM modifiers.
Thanks!

[AlbertN]

Tried the "easy mode" - and the extra PPs are nice (admittedly in the regular thing you have way too few of them in my opinion so that most of the "decisions" have to be taken at 0 PP.).
Oil looks fine in the easy mode truth be told. Panzers remain out of fuel but not at turn 2-3 at least!

I am not sure how the AI works - the Germans are getting quite bled but at least they're making an advance.
The AI at times is a bit silly though (I assume it's the easy mode) and leaves some important cities (such as Kiev) empty when in reach of Germans.

The rest and refit seems a bit ... demanding, in general. Maybe too much demanding and for the troops you have, to devote an entire army to rest and refit can be pretty bad.
But I remain in my case the first turns are very sluggish for Germans; and to have to attack 3-4 times a Soviet division to have it get broken (disintegrated or so!) seems excessive.

[dhhd]

ORIGINAL: Cohen

Tried the "easy mode" - and the extra PPs are nice (admittedly in the regular thing you have way too few of them in my opinion so that most of the "decisions" have to be taken at 0 PP.).
Oil looks fine in the easy mode truth be told. Panzers remain out of fuel but not at turn 2-3 at least!

I am not sure how the AI works - the Germans are getting quite bled but at least they're making an advance.
The AI at times is a bit silly though (I assume it's the easy mode) and leaves some important cities (such as Kiev) empty when in reach of Germans.

The rest and refit seems a bit ... demanding, in general. Maybe too much demanding and for the troops you have, to devote an entire army to rest and refit can be pretty bad.
But I remain in my case the first turns are very sluggish for Germans; and to have to attack 3-4 times a Soviet division to have it get broken (disintegrated or so!) seems excessive.

What I found was that without easy mode, German PP are really tight at the beginning, but as with the German position in general there's a snowball point: once you've had the chance to kiss up to Hitler a few times for the bonus PPs, and if you take advantage of von Brauchitsch's "Ambiguous Orders" option (which you get if your relationship with him is good) to petition Hitler for more PPs, and positive relationships with various people mean PP costs are lower (by the end of my last playthrough a lot of times I'd be presented with a list of zero-cost options) you have more than you need: at one point I had over 200 PP and nothing to spend them on. I suppose you could send armies across boundaries and eat the PP penalty.

I only had major supply problems for my panzers early on: too few trucks, etc, and a few times later where there were problems with Soviet holdouts on major rail routes and mud - but the later instances hurt my infantry more than the PGs. I had the 11th or the 17th - whichever is the southmost army - sitting there along/across the Dnepr, muddling around - without enough supply for a while because the southernmost Romanian army took forever to take Odessa and Nikolaev, and the other Romanian army was my only division losses - 5 of them, in 1 turn.

I used the German helps once each - they're a bit OP, I suppose, because any situation where the Germans have enough PP to win, they're probably going to be doing well enough that they get a Sudden Death victory. That's how it seems to me, at least, playing as the Germans vs AI - I had a minor defeat as the Soviets, probably because I bought too many What If? choices (getting the Siberians early is not worth it - one army, whoop de doop).

I find it helps to think of attacking Soviet divisions when they're not encircled as more to push them around so you can keep moving, pull off encirclements, etc, than anything else. Additionally, it's often better to, say, reduce 2 Soviet divisions to 50% than eliminate 1 entirely.

Also, the rest and refit, and moving FSBs - I would be interested to know how long those things actually took. Because a week to a week and a half seems a bit long, but I have no frame of reference.