I need Help - AI Testing

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Good thanks Pax

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Just remember even 102 is Ironman |Tier 1 ie not nasty or nasty nasty - I am trying build up and get the Ai working better 1st

Playing 102 ... up to Dec 20th or so. AI is doing fine so far. All advances are well supported. nothing stupid so far.

About Jan 1 ... AI still ok. I think biggest issue so far is that the AI is plodding ...
I'm getting everything out of Singers as there is no Mersing and the AI can't field enough Anti-Naval soon enough to stop the Sir Robin.

Now in some respects this is good. The AI will accomplish a major objective (Singers) which will allow it to keep going ... OTOH, I'm getting too much out.
Ditto china. The AI is just moving too slow. It's letting me get into positions there too easy.

Having said these two things, I also understand some of the limitations. My thoughts would be:

1. Not sure Mersing is the best solution here, but for Ironman it means advances in the DEI should be faster. Kuching/Sambas/Palembang timetables should be faster. Ironman AI should have assets to allow that to happen. This would mitigate the slow march down the Malay peninsula as there isn't much we can do about that.
2. China: ditto. I think some of the time tables should be pushed forward. Again, Ironman assets should support a faster time table...

In both cases I'm thinking like move them up a week within the first month ... something like that.

[Andy Mac]

Interesting

I am trying to get a base AI that works without wasting too many assets and covers itself better in the expansion phase

I will then do some variants based off of that solid base which will expand more quickly !!!

[Andy Mac]

Pax did you lose anything at all bugging out of Singapore ??

In AI v AI tests - the AI takes a long time over Singapore because the AI actually reinforces Singers most of the time.

This is why I need live testers AI v AI simply doesnt show everything !!

Thanks

Andy

[Andy Mac]

I think the new bases in Malaya help the AI advance in a more logical fashion as well

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Pax did you lose anything at all bugging out of Singapore ??

In AI v AI tests - the AI takes a long time over Singapore because the AI actually reinforces Singers most of the time.

This is why I need live testers AI v AI simply doesnt show everything !!

Thanks

Andy

One xAK ... that's it. I got every unit out of Singers that can be bought out ... and that xAK was on the last day of the exodus. It was carrying a crappy IND BN.

Again, I chose to bug out rather than fight because I know that Singers is a major script that the AI has to complete. Also, in an Ironman game, not sure I could hold Singers anyway. I haven't looked at the Allied side in the 'base' Ironman in so long that I don't remember what they get.
I do know that in Nasty, Nasty I can't hold it.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

I think the new bases in Malaya help the AI advance in a more logical fashion as well

They do, but it is a plodding advance. That's ok really, but just need to find a way to make the Sir Robin more risky. That's why I'm thinking move up the time table for Sinkawang/Sambas/Pontiak. If the NW corner of Borneo is lost, and Netties are present, the Singapore Sir Robin is toast.

Anyway , just some thoughts.


Otherwise, AI is doing well. 1/5/42 Temuloh has fallen as has KL. I figure another 2 weeks before the IJ gets to Singers unopposed.

Hasn't shown up in Burma yet. I'm planning to defend at Katha (+2 terrain) fall back at Myitkyina (+3 terrain). Even against Ironman, I should be able to hold there and in India. I'm strengthening Calcutta/Chittagong and Ceylon (Singers refugees all going to Ceylon).

I haven't peeked at the scripts, but I'm assuming I will need to cede PM. I'm also prepared to give up Darwin and NE OZ to Brisbane. I don't think I will have to give up anything else and I won't give up PErth. That also is getting defenses set.

So far, what I'm seeing tells me all this should be doable and the allies will be on counter attack by 9/42 ... maybe a bit sooner.

I'm mostly curious on how fast you accelerate aircraft models and get them into production. My 9/42 date is assuming I'm still facing Tojo/Oscar not Frank .... [;)]




BTW: In my mod of your Nasty, Nasty variant (I play IJ, AI is Allies), I have really accelerated some models and then I have setup groups to disband where I can replenish AI pools. Aircraft for allies that I increased or modded beyond your Nasty, Nasty point include:
P-39 - re-armed with 20mm Hispano (as the SOV did IRL and I think the P400 was armed as such) so it is much more effective and much better than P40, increased production severely in 1st 6 months and all US Army, Canada, OZ, and NZ fighter groups can upgrade to it.

P-51 series. All arrive 6 - 9 months earlier (P-51A in 9/42). Again as with the P-39 in terms of what units can use it. Production numbers are 100's/month. I figure this is in response to IJ players accelerated RnD ... P51a is a good match against Tojo ... [;)]

This is just a few things ... mostly just spins from what you already have in place ...

[Andy Mac]

Interesting plodding is ok for this one but I may forward deploy some zeroes and netties to make it tougher to evac

Main thing in this one is a solid expansion phase with lowere losses still taking the key bases and then really digging in for a tough defensive battle with resources this time.

If I can get an improved baseline Ai then I may steal a few of those ideas when I get back to tier 2 and 3 ironman scenarios !!!

At the moment concentrating on the key basic 3 scenarios

[Andy Mac]

ps thanks once again JeffK and Pax I know its hard to test v the Ai

I really miss Brady who was my AI tester he played out the 1st 6 months soooo many times !!!

[JeffroK]

Been a bit slow, a couple of incidents at work have left me a bit p.o'd when I get home.

I mentioned the 3 day PH attack, a week later KB is still in range of Midway ans attacking there, might have refuelled?

[DD696]

Hi Andy,

I am willing to help. On 23 Feb I restarted a heavily modified version of RA 7.9 and finished turn 135 today, so that is 16 days to do 135 turns. I'm turning out turns slower than normal for a good while now, but today I have completed (hopefully) my chemotherapy sessions and will begin to end this downhill slide.

I tend to play a passive game (Allied player) against the AI at first. I learned long ago if you defeat the Empire's navy around Port Morsby the game gets kind of dull after than. I withdraw as much as possible from Malaya to carry on the war in Burma. There are times when I get a frustrated at the bull headed AI and give them a good pounding and have some fun, then I go back a few turns and let it do what it wants with minimal opposition.

In order to help the AI in my mod I do replace all Japanese land units with the ones from scenario 1 as that is what the AI is expecting to find (as well as add in the additional ships), and I get to play with all the new toys. I beef up HI, LI, oil, fuel and resource production in Japan/Korea/Manchuria in order to make it as self sufficient as possible. I don't like having to play on hard or extra hard in order to boost these resources in the pools. I monitor Japan with tracker (and turn off Japanese garrison requirements) to prevent Japan taking major hits when I have to go in and tinker with something on the Japanese side.

I haven't played any stock scenarios in years and find them rather dull after trying out some of the good mods out there. If you think I would be of any use in your testing kindly let me know.

In my humble opinion, there should be scenarios made specifically for the AI player. This would make for a much better game and mod developers wouldn't be jumping thru hoops trying to have a scenario that works for both.

[PaxMondo]

1/14/42 ... allies just took Kluang ... so another week before they arrive in Singers ...
Georgetwon still not taken, but units have arrived. Likely fall tomorrow ...
Sambas fell 1/13/42 ... so maybe Singkawang in the next week.
Manila and Clark both under attack (AI split forces). Both survived first attack, but should fall by the 3rd one ...
Mindinao has essentially fallen ...

Balikpapn fell on 1/10/42.
Tarakan landing today.

No signs of IJ in Burma yet ...

[Andy Mac]

Sorry DD696 I am testing the Scenarios above4 and specifically the new AI script tha\t I am developing to act as a baseline for future AI mods so I am looking for testers to run out c 6 months of one of the scenarios above to test out the new AI script.

Unfortuantely that means existing mod games are not really going to help at this point because of the changes I am tryin gto make to improve the Ai

In essence the Ironman series of scenarios are basically v AI only to try and mitigate AI disadvantages

Andy

ORIGINAL: DD696

Hi Andy,

I am willing to help. On 23 Feb I restarted a heavily modified version of RA 7.9 and finished turn 135 today, so that is 16 days to do 135 turns. I'm turning out turns slower than normal for a good while now, but today I have completed (hopefully) my chemotherapy sessions and will begin to end this downhill slide.

I tend to play a passive game (Allied player) against the AI at first. I learned long ago if you defeat the Empire's navy around Port Morsby the game gets kind of dull after than. I withdraw as much as possible from Malaya to carry on the war in Burma. There are times when I get a frustrated at the bull headed AI and give them a good pounding and have some fun, then I go back a few turns and let it do what it wants with minimal opposition.

In order to help the AI in my mod I do replace all Japanese land units with the ones from scenario 1 as that is what the AI is expecting to find (as well as add in the additional ships), and I get to play with all the new toys. I beef up HI, LI, oil, fuel and resource production in Japan/Korea/Manchuria in order to make it as self sufficient as possible. I don't like having to play on hard or extra hard in order to boost these resources in the pools. I monitor Japan with tracker (and turn off Japanese garrison requirements) to prevent Japan taking major hits when I have to go in and tinker with something on the Japanese side.

I haven't played any stock scenarios in years and find them rather dull after trying out some of the good mods out there. If you think I would be of any use in your testing kindly let me know.

In my humble opinion, there should be scenarios made specifically for the AI player. This would make for a much better game and mod developers wouldn't be jumping thru hoops trying to have a scenario that works for both.

[Andy Mac]

So it seems to be progressing ok without massive losses the only challenge will be has the pace allowed you time to make java impregnable will be interesting to see

Thanks

Andy

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

1/14/42 ... allies just took Kluang ... so another week before they arrive in Singers ...
Georgetwon still not taken, but units have arrived. Likely fall tomorrow ...
Sambas fell 1/13/42 ... so maybe Singkawang in the next week.
Manila and Clark both under attack (AI split forces). Both survived first attack, but should fall by the 3rd one ...
Mindinao has essentially fallen ...

Balikpapn fell on 1/10/42.
Tarakan landing today.

No signs of IJ in Burma yet ...

[DD696]

That's fine, Andy.

I was willing to test out your scenario 2 (as you have it now) and was just informing you of what I have been doing to improve the AI for my personal play. I simply thought that my experience with the AI to date may have been of some benefit to you.

Hope you can improve it more. It will benefit many players of this great game.

[PaxMondo]

Not planning to defend in Java as I know it would break the AI too soon.

Near term objectives (early '42):

Will defend North Burma and then push down. See how AI reacts to that. It will be slow as '42 Allies just don't have enough of anything. But Burma is a good place to fight for me as allies.

Then defend OZ and take back any territory lost.

Secure Aleutians.

Secure Line Islands.



1/15/42- Rabaul landing. 1st attack repulsed.
1/16/42 - Georgetown falls.
1/18/42 - JI arrives in Singers ... repulsed.
1/20/42 - Rabaul falls. Singers falls. Tarakan falls.

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

So it seems to be progressing ok without massive losses the only challenge will be has the pace allowed you time to make java impregnable will be interesting to see

Thanks

Andy

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

1/14/42 ... allies just took Kluang ... so another week before they arrive in Singers ...
Georgetwon still not taken, but units have arrived. Likely fall tomorrow ...
Sambas fell 1/13/42 ... so maybe Singkawang in the next week.
Manila and Clark both under attack (AI split forces). Both survived first attack, but should fall by the 3rd one ...
Mindinao has essentially fallen ...

Balikpapn fell on 1/10/42.
Tarakan landing today.

No signs of IJ in Burma yet ...

[Andy Mac]

Apologies I misunderstood your email.

Any help on any of the three scens posted is most welcome and different play styles as well I need the broadest set of feedback on the new baseline AI.

Basically I want as many insights as possible on the AI.

I am trying to improve it - reality is it may never be fully competitive for more than 9 months in Scen 1 but if I can pinpoint why it fails better I can continue to improve the performance.

Andy

ORIGINAL: DD696

That's fine, Andy.

I was willing to test out your scenario 2 (as you have it now) and was just informing you of what I have been doing to improve the AI for my personal play. I simply thought that my experience with the AI to date may have been of some benefit to you.

Hope you can improve it more. It will benefit many players of this great game.

[Andy Mac]

Thanks Pax actually play as you want I want to see what works and doesnt work.

Re new bases how are they working out ??

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

Not planning to defend in Java as I know it would break the AI too soon.

Near term objectives (early '42):

Will defend North Burma and then push down. See how AI reacts to that. It will be slow as '42 Allies just don't have enough of anything. But Burma is a good place to fight for me as allies.

Then defend OZ and take back any territory lost.

Secure Aleutians.

Secure Line Islands.



1/15/42- Rabaul landing. 1st attack repulsed.
1/16/42 - Georgetown falls.
1/18/42 - JI arrives in Singers ... repulsed.
1/20/42 - Rabaul falls. Singers falls. Tarakan falls.

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

So it seems to be progressing ok without massive losses the only challenge will be has the pace allowed you time to make java impregnable will be interesting to see

Thanks

Andy

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

1/14/42 ... allies just took Kluang ... so another week before they arrive in Singers ...
Georgetwon still not taken, but units have arrived. Likely fall tomorrow ...
Sambas fell 1/13/42 ... so maybe Singkawang in the next week.
Manila and Clark both under attack (AI split forces). Both survived first attack, but should fall by the 3rd one ...
Mindinao has essentially fallen ...

Balikpapn fell on 1/10/42.
Tarakan landing today.

No signs of IJ in Burma yet ...

[PaxMondo]

1/22/42 - Moulmein falls. IJ in Burma.

1/25/42 - Makassar and Kendari fall.

1/29/42 Pegu falls.

[dr. smith]

I've actually been playing your Scenario 33 since December, which I think was a precursor? How much change to the AI scripts did you make recently?

I'm in May of '42. Didn't try any fortress Java, but I've had Japan blocked at Moulmein for awhile. Batavia fell on 22 April, Soerbaja's about to. Only thing left in DEI is Sabang.

China's been very quiet.

Can get you more details if this version is of any help.

[Yaab]

AndyMac, I think I found a data error.

In scen033 and scen100, almost all xAK/AK/xAP/support ships in Pearl Harbor on December 7, have unusually high crew experience in range of 50/10 for day/night. In scen001 the experience rating of these ships matches the experience of other USN and Allied ships, which is on average 15/10.


For example, AK Alchiba is 13/11 in scen 1, and 53/12 in scen 33 and 100.

OthersxAK:Laida, Florence D
AG: Antares, Aries
xAKLs: Manini, Hirondelle
xAP: St Mihael

and so on, so forth.