P-47s: Hammer of God?

[Grfin Zeppelin]

ORIGINAL: John B.

On the other hand, when the Japanese capture a base they get a hearty "BANZAI". When the allies capture something they only get a lame "hip hip hooray" like they just got served tepid lima beans. The Japanese get Tokyo Rose the allies get nothing. The only possible implication is that there is that the developers each have a secret Hirohito shrine hidden in their respective basements. [;)]

Sounds like they all have a bipolar pacific war disorder

[Marshall]

Well Alfred,

The fact is, Japanese airframes as the George and the frank where good airframes, and Japan had not enough experienced pilots to fly them.
It is a historical fact.

And since when do I need to fly combat missions to state that catching air combat in an algorithm is not going to be a 100% accurate thing.
Perhaps the pilot ate a bad burrito and felt sick , and lost the air combat due to the cook !.
[:D][:D][:D]
As I stated the game did well, I am not kicking the algorithm of the game how air combat is calculated, I just state if favors the allied cause later on in the war.

Furthermore, if you hand over the source codes of the game, I be happy to show the models and the bias towards the allied cause.
You state that I tell lies, hence prove I lie, and show the code. if not then I can state my opinion of the matter as I chose fit.

The frank was regarded after the war as a better plane then many allied airframes, perhaps even the Mustang and the corsair.

It seems your purpose in life is to ramble against anything that is written on this forum, with the sole purpose of being more grumpy then the day before.

to state I am a bad player is also hilarious, I take you on any time, but then you seem to be to busy every time I offer it.
big mouth, big words, but when push comes to shove, no courage to play.

The list of battles in WW2 you present means nothing in the game mechanics, that I speak of.
simple example, war isn't played out in phases, and ships get interdicted any hour of day in real time, not in a particular phase of day when all airmen run to their planes because it is the time to do so in the game.
and we play in the aftermath of the war, knowing the results, and key events.
We can now IF IF away until we drop.

For the fact that I do not play allied anymore, because I find it to easy, is not yours to judge.
And I served 4 years in the air force, but I do not see why my flying qualifications in a modern jet should reflect the experience of flying in a zero.
But then Alfred, perhaps you have flown planes in 1941? as you find yourself a expert on all matters, including code you did not write but defend to the teeth, or are you the lead programmer of the game as well?.


One small historical fact, the romans knew that, the Greeks knew that, history is always, always rewritten by the victors, without exception.

For the rest of your rambling, you really should visit a professional.
[8D]

PM me if you up to a game challenge and I will show you how the mechanics favor the allied cause.

As regarding to my intellect, Alfred, bold statement from such a troubled mind.
Come play.....

[Grfin Zeppelin]

Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish.
Euripides

[Ambassador]

Stop feeding the troll...

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: Marshall

Well Alfred,

The fact is, Japanese airframes as the George and the frank where good airframes, and Japan had not enough experienced pilots to fly them.
It is a historical fact.

And since when do I need to fly combat missions to state that catching air combat in an algorithm is not going to be a 100% accurate thing.
Perhaps the pilot ate a bad burrito and felt sick , and lost the air combat due to the cook !.
[:D][:D][:D]
As I stated the game did well, I am not kicking the algorithm of the game how air combat is calculated, I just state if favors the allied cause later on in the war.

Furthermore, if you hand over the source codes of the game, I be happy to show the models and the bias towards the allied cause.
You state that I tell lies, hence prove I lie, and show the code. if not then I can state my opinion of the matter as I chose fit.

The frank was regarded after the war as a better plane then many allied airframes, perhaps even the Mustang and the corsair.

It seems your purpose in life is to ramble against anything that is written on this forum, with the sole purpose of being more grumpy then the day before.

to state I am a bad player is also hilarious, I take you on any time, but then you seem to be to busy every time I offer it.
big mouth, big words, but when push comes to shove, no courage to play.

The list of battles in WW2 you present means nothing in the game mechanics, that I speak of.
simple example, war isn't played out in phases, and ships get interdicted any hour of day in real time, not in a particular phase of day when all airmen run to their planes because it is the time to do so in the game.
and we play in the aftermath of the war, knowing the results, and key events.
We can now IF IF away until we drop.

For the fact that I do not play allied anymore, because I find it to easy, is not yours to judge.
And I served 4 years in the air force, but I do not see why my flying qualifications in a modern jet should reflect the experience of flying in a zero.
But then Alfred, perhaps you have flown planes in 1941? as you find yourself a expert on all matters, including code you did not write but defend to the teeth, or are you the lead programmer of the game as well?.


One small historical fact, the romans knew that, the Greeks knew that, history is always, always rewritten by the victors, without exception.

For the rest of your rambling, you really should visit a professional.
[8D]

PM me if you up to a game challenge and I will show you how the mechanics favor the allied cause.

As regarding to my intellect, Alfred, bold statement from such a troubled mind.
Come play.....

^-- except that all of the Allied testing on the frames was done with high quality av gas, not the lesser stuff that was available to the Japanese. Worse fuel = less power output = worse performance.

The ratings in the game are, if anything, overstating the historical capabilities of the Japanese planes because the ratings in the game are mostly if not completely based on the post-war Allied testing.

[Marshall]

True Lokasenna, it will never be like it was, and that is OK, it is a GAME!.
I just stated the engine under the hood imho favors the allied cause later in 1943.
Air combat could be more towards pilot experience and less to speed.
I never stated the other factors are not present, I just stated I rather see it more balanced towards the pilot experience rather than speed.
I also stated the game engine did a good job of simulating air combat, as it is very difficult to get that right in an algorithm.

if people don't agree, then do not agree, it is a free world, no need for getting al personal and insulting, over an opinion.
As for the AI, I am sorry, it doesn't give me a proper challenge, it is my experience, so again, if people do not agree, LET IT GO!. the world is full of more important things than a GAME!
Alfred reacted like I was beating up his wife

You wonder why people/ Alfred get upset over criticism of a game engine, other then not being able to see into perspective.

He acts like he is the lead programmer, the top fighter ace from 1941, The admiral and top general of WW2 and beyond!. the very pinnacle of intellect, and the standard that defines humanity.
While reality is most probably quite different. ( I personally picture him with an old sweater stating founding member of the grumpy club[:D][:D] )

But I am sure he will wake up, read this and start rambling again, just after he took his morning pills. (if I am lucky, otherwise he will ramble without the medication)

[witpqs]

Your claim about the game engine "under the hood" favoring the Allies later in 1943 is just nonsense with no justification.

[paradigmblue]

ORIGINAL: Marshall

True Lokasenna, it will never be like it was, and that is OK, it is a GAME!.
I just stated the engine under the hood imho favors the allied cause later in 1943.
Air combat could be more towards pilot experience and less to speed.
I never stated the other factors are not present, I just stated I rather see it more balanced towards the pilot experience rather than speed.
I also stated the game engine did a good job of simulating air combat, as it is very difficult to get that right in an algorithm.

if people don't agree, then do not agree, it is a free world, no need for getting al personal and insulting, over an opinion.
As for the AI, I am sorry, it doesn't give me a proper challenge, it is my experience, so again, if people do not agree, LET IT GO!. the world is full of more important things than a GAME!
Alfred reacted like I was beating up his wife

You wonder why people/ Alfred get upset over criticism of a game engine, other then not being able to see into perspective.

He acts like he is the lead programmer, the top fighter ace from 1941, The admiral and top general of WW2 and beyond!. the very pinnacle of intellect, and the standard that defines humanity.
While reality is most probably quite different. ( I personally picture him with an old sweater stating founding member of the grumpy club[:D][:D] )

But I am sure he will wake up, read this and start rambling again, just after he took his morning pills. (if I am lucky, otherwise he will ramble without the medication)

Stop touching the stove.

[LoBaron]

Marshall, having a different opinion than somebody else is perfectly legal. Entering a debate with somebody more knowledgeable and experienced than yourself is legal as well. Being wrong is legal too. Not admitting to be wrong results in errors in judgement and actions. That happens, to me as well, as errors aren't easily admitted, it takes strenght and a prerequisite is that search for truth is more important to you than your ego.

But entering a debate with people more knowledgable than yourself, getting your errors in judgement pointed out to you, not admitting your errors but instead attempting to belittle those who took the time to teach you something, that is easily the worst approach to choose. Not only does it make you look ridiculous, but also it will with a high probability reduce the chance of you profiting from their knowledge in the future (as they might start to care less and less about your posts except if their reply is of benefit to other forum members - probably one of the reasons you still get replies).

Alfred is one of the (if not the) most experienced and knowledgeable forum member. If he extensively replies to a post you can assume that he has carefully considered what you have written, and has formulated his response as clear and unequivocally as possible. Some of the more tender souls on the forums sometimes find the direct way Alfred points out empirical and logical errors in their posts irritating, but ignoring him is only their own loss.

What is kind of funny is that this thread actually contains a post by someone you attempt to accuse Alfred of mimicking: A programmer/game designer, lead of the air team for WitP AE, and ex (can someone who did this ever be?) navy F/A 18 pilot.
Now, I am a pilot myself - I have a PPL license for SEP - and I know quite a bit about aircraft. I will not be reluctant to enter a discussion about flying and aircraft with TheElf if the opportunity arises. At the same time I will be well aware that the chances of me teaching him something new instead of the other way around is about 100000/1 om a good day.
We are both pilots and both know stuff about planes, but our difference in qualification could not be greater. Knowing that in no way makes me feel uncomfortable, rather I know that listening to somebody with his level of experience might even save my life one day.

Your knowledge delta on WitP AE topics compared to Alfred (and some of the other experienced people hear who tried to explain something to you) might not be as big as mine compared to Ian's regarding flying air raft, but the same principles apply - except maybe that your live does not depend on it if you are reluctant to learn.

My humble suggestion would be to listen to the experts here, and accept their reasoning as it is sound and well founded, even if it hurts your pride. You can only benefit. Not doing so on the other hand is your loss alone.

[Marshall]

I wear gloves 😄

[Marshall]

I did not go into a discussion, i stated my opinion.
Again , if the mighty alfred or other forum members do not agree to that opinion they are free to do so.
I have taken advice from forum members plenty of times. And will certainly do so in he future.
I read threats i disagree with as well, but i respect other opinions and views. I do not go to insults and disrespect people.
I have no pride that prevents me to take advice and use it.
About the thread reference that was used before, i have no clue, never read that. So you have to excuse me on that, as i have no knowledge of it.

Flying licenses and the aircraft and model/ time has nothing to do eith my opinion on the game engine, yes it is a game engine!
In combat the ability of the fighter pilot to anticipate and execute manouvres, read his opponent, and even the ability to spot the enemy first, combined eith experience have in my view more impact then just speed factor. Speed is important, but it is to
Much of a factor in my view in the game. I rather see experience have a more wider seat in the model.
But that is my opinion, nothing more, i do not claim the ultimate wisdom here, but i can state my opinion.
My statement that the game engine favours alloed cause can be seen in that light as well.
I do not claim the japanese are defenceless, or there is a mega inbalance.


My problem is that alfred steps way across the boundary of advice or disagreement, and steps into insulting people he disagrees with.
The fact that other forum members accept or ignore this, will not state i will.

To enable Alfred to treat people like this on the forum, only enables his behaviour.

[LoBaron]

ORIGINAL: Marshall
I did not go into a discussion, i stated my opinion [...]

Your error in judgement is that, on an internet forum, those are two separate things. They are not. I understand though that it would be soothing to somebody who has difficulties to face his deficiencies.

My problem is that alfred steps way across the boundary of advice or disagreement, and steps into insulting people [...]

You problem starts at a much earlier phase. Confusing cause and effect doen't help either.

I wear gloves.

Doesn't help much if you're already in with your face. Although credit given for a really funny reply. [:D]

Anyways, I begin to agree with some other posters that your behaviour resembles that of a troll. Which is not neccessarily a bad thing, as, and the examples are right in this thread, trolling sometimes provokes knowledgeable people to share their wisdom.

[Marshall]

Well we can settle the air combat thing very quickly
If the combat calculations model can be revealed, we can discuss it in detail and with open visor based on actual factual algoryrhms that are used in the game.
Of course we need to consider all the side values the calculation takes into affect as well.
So i will be happy to state my ignorance and wrong saying after we have the model on the table and discussed it in depth.

Perhaps a dev can help us out here by giving is the model only, no need for the code, just the model.
That would be a great thing, and a great learning experience

So is this possible? 🙈

[Marshall]

Life is a joke , so
We better laugh and have a good sense of humor 😎

[Marshall]

My apologys to John B for hijacking his thread.
But if we can get the air calc model, i am sure it will be all worth it 😃

[John B.]

No worries. All good conversations follow their own path.

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: Marshall

Well we can settle the air combat thing very quickly
If the combat calculations model can be revealed, we can discuss it in detail and with open visor based on actual factual algoryrhms that are used in the game.
Of course we need to consider all the side values the calculation takes into affect as well.
So i will be happy to state my ignorance and wrong saying after we have the model on the table and discussed it in depth.

Perhaps a dev can help us out here by giving is the model only, no need for the code, just the model.
That would be a great thing, and a great learning experience

So is this possible? 🙈

You're asking in the wrong place. No one on the forum owns the game code. You need to contact the developers or possibly Matrix Games.

You also could benefit from supplying any evidence to support your claims. Combat reports, tests, whatever. most players here do the work themselves rather than asking for the code, or the air model. One of the developers of the air model has appeared in this thread, The Elf. So give him a PM if you're serious and want to discover more through some tests or something. He might point you in the right direction at least.

One suggestion I could give you would be to try tests in 42 and another set in 45 of a grand campaign with the same airframes, same settings and conditions, same pilot skills, same situation in game and the same group leaders. That might show you whether your conjecture actually has some merit. Without evidence you're just pissing in the wind ...

[Miller]

In real life the IJN failed to sink a single US CV after 1942. However you can read multiple AARs as well as games I have been involved in myself where the Jap player has sunk dozens of CVs after 1943 when this mythical Allied air advantage kicks in.

[Marshall]

Pissing in the wind can be usefull if your pants are on fire 🚒
But point taken, i understand nobody has the code on the forum.

I will try to contact the elf ( this could be a line in lord of the rings)

Im, off . Have to catch an Elf.

[Marshall]

Miller,
My statement wasnt that japan could not inflict damage 😄
I play japan in my pbem games, i know Japan can.
I do know japan has favorable things going, as fuel quality, material availability, quality of the mataerial all deteriorated over time for japan.
The combat factor speed will favor allied airframes later on because they Are faster.
As i stated in my reply before, im fine with the way combat is calculated as it is very hard to put air combat into a algoryrhm.

What i am interested in currently is the algoryrhm model of the aircombat.
Would be interesting to get to know that part of the game to the finest detail.

Cheers

Now where is that Elf🙈