Barrage Baloons are not present at night

[mind_messing]

Barrage Baloon requirements

Baloons
The Balloon effect is determined by maximum value of (a) plus (b) below. The overall maximum of the sum is 9.
(a) Balloons are present in a base if the AF + port > 6. The value is the fort level of the hex.
(b) Balloons can be added to a base/LCU by creating a device of type BALLOON. The value is the number of devices. [not currently in use]

They affect aircraft flying below 6000'.

Twin-engine or higher planes increase the number of balloons by 4.

Balloon level is not reported but is usually the fort level if the combined value of the base is >6.
Pilot experience should help to avoid balloons (except for the bug I just found which is not always using the right pilot!!!)

Attacking a base with the correct requirements below 6000ft in daylight leads to messages of aircraft colliding with barrage baloons and suffering damage as a result.

Attacking the same base at night leads to no such messages appearing.

Is this an oversight in the inclusion of the barrage baloon rules?

[mind_messing]

To satisfy myself that I'm not crazy, I created a sandbox for low altitude attacks in the Downfall scenario.

An empty base (Port & AF >6, forts at level 6) was attacked by Allied 4E and daylight and at night, at 5000ft.

Daylight raids suffered notable damage from balloons, as seen by the message in the replay.

The same raid conducted at night does see balloons have an effect, but at an extremely impaired level versus daylight attacks, to the point that it's irrelevant.

Is there any reason for this?

If anything, balloons should be far more effective at disrupting low level 4E raids at night than in the day, as the visibility of the big bags of gas will make avoidance extremely difficult.

I really do suspect that there's something that isn't right in the code regarding barrage balloons. My reasoning is twofold; the balloon mechanic was added to the game after release, and there is a massive inconsistency between the effectiveness of balloons at night versus in daylight.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

To satisfy myself that I'm not crazy, I created a sandbox for low altitude attacks in the Downfall scenario.

An empty base (Port & AF >6, forts at level 6) was attacked by Allied 4E and daylight and at night, at 5000ft.

Daylight raids suffered notable damage from balloons, as seen by the message in the replay.

The same raid conducted at night does see balloons have an effect, but at an extremely impaired level versus daylight attacks, to the point that it's irrelevant.

Is there any reason for this?

If anything, balloons should be far more effective at disrupting low level 4E raids at night than in the day, as the visibility of the big bags of gas will make avoidance extremely difficult.

I really do suspect that there's something that isn't right in the code regarding barrage balloons. My reasoning is twofold; the balloon mechanic was added to the game after release, and there is a massive inconsistency between the effectiveness of balloons at night versus in daylight.

How about when you compare the damage done by the balloons with the damage done to the target by the bombers?

It might be that balloons are abstracted in such a way that they are more or less 'over' areas that the bombers are trying to hit. At night the bombers usually do less damage to their intended targets, meaning they had less success in getting 'over' the areas they wanted to hit, and therefore were less likely to get damaged by balloons.

Just a thought, how does it look in your data?

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

To satisfy myself that I'm not crazy, I created a sandbox for low altitude attacks in the Downfall scenario.

An empty base (Port & AF >6, forts at level 6) was attacked by Allied 4E and daylight and at night, at 5000ft.

Daylight raids suffered notable damage from balloons, as seen by the message in the replay.

The same raid conducted at night does see balloons have an effect, but at an extremely impaired level versus daylight attacks, to the point that it's irrelevant.

Is there any reason for this?

If anything, balloons should be far more effective at disrupting low level 4E raids at night than in the day, as the visibility of the big bags of gas will make avoidance extremely difficult.

I really do suspect that there's something that isn't right in the code regarding barrage balloons. My reasoning is twofold; the balloon mechanic was added to the game after release, and there is a massive inconsistency between the effectiveness of balloons at night versus in daylight.

How about when you compare the damage done by the balloons with the damage done to the target by the bombers?

It might be that balloons are abstracted in such a way that they are more or less 'over' areas that the bombers are trying to hit. At night the bombers usually do less damage to their intended targets, meaning they had less success in getting 'over' the areas they wanted to hit, and therefore were less likely to get damaged by balloons.

Just a thought, how does it look in your data?

My (our, really) anecdotal experience is that the balloons really do sh*t-all at night. They don't seem to disrupt aim at all, and I'm not sure I've ever even seen "damaged by balloon" on any of my night raids.

The bolded part is worth chewing over, but that would have the balloons working in a manner unlike flak, i.e. after the target run. Granted, balloons aren't flak, but...

I don't know (and don't want to know) what the fort levels were for the following strikes, but I think the "damaged by balloon" message appeared either once or not at all:

Night Air attack on Soerabaja , at 56,104

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid spotted at 40 NM, estimated altitude 5,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 12 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5d-S Zero x 16

Allied aircraft
B-29-1 Superfort x 3

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5d-S Zero: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
B-29-1 Superfort: 2 damaged
B-29-1 Superfort: 1 destroyed by flak

Japanese Ships
BB Nagato, Bomb hits 4, on fire
BB Ise, Bomb hits 4

Port hits 1

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 2000 feet
Port Attack: 20 x 500 lb GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Soerabaja , at 56,104

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid detected at 10 NM, estimated altitude 6,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 3 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5d-S Zero x 15

Allied aircraft
B-29-1 Superfort x 3

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5d-S Zero: 2 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
B-29-1 Superfort: 2 damaged
B-29-1 Superfort: 1 destroyed by flak

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 2000 feet
Port Attack: 20 x 500 lb GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Soerabaja , at 56,104

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid detected at 12 NM, estimated altitude 6,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 3 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5d-S Zero x 10

Allied aircraft
B-29-1 Superfort x 3

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5d-S Zero: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
B-29-1 Superfort: 2 damaged
B-29-1 Superfort: 1 destroyed by flak

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 2000 feet
Port Attack: 20 x 500 lb GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Soerabaja , at 56,104

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid spotted at 38 NM, estimated altitude 6,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 11 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5d-S Zero x 6

Allied aircraft
B-29-1 Superfort x 3

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
B-29-1 Superfort: 2 damaged

Japanese Ships
BB Ise, Bomb hits 4, on fire
CA Ashigara, Bomb hits 1
DD Sawakaze, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
BB Nagato, Bomb hits 1, on fire

Port hits 4
Port fuel hits 1

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 2000 feet
Port Attack: 20 x 500 lb GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Soerabaja , at 56,104

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid detected at 34 NM, estimated altitude 5,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 10 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5d-S Zero x 6

Allied aircraft
B-29-1 Superfort x 5

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
B-29-1 Superfort: 3 damaged

Japanese Ships
BB Ise, Bomb hits 5, on fire
BB Nagato, Bomb hits 4, on fire
SS I-31, Bomb hits 1, on fire
DD Nokaze, Bomb hits 1, on fire
CA Ashigara, Bomb hits 1

Port hits 2
Port fuel hits 1

Aircraft Attacking:
5 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 2000 feet
Port Attack: 20 x 500 lb GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Soerabaja , at 56,104

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid spotted at 35 NM, estimated altitude 5,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 10 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5d-S Zero x 6

Allied aircraft
B-29-1 Superfort x 2

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
B-29-1 Superfort: 2 damaged

Aircraft Attacking:
2 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 2000 feet
City Attack: 20 x 500 lb GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Soerabaja , at 56,104

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid spotted at 43 NM, estimated altitude 5,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 13 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5d-S Zero x 5

Allied aircraft
B-29-1 Superfort x 3

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
B-29-1 Superfort: 3 damaged

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 2000 feet
City Attack: 20 x 500 lb GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Soerabaja , at 56,104

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid detected at 35 NM, estimated altitude 5,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 10 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5d-S Zero x 4

Allied aircraft
B-29-1 Superfort x 3

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
B-29-1 Superfort: 1 damaged
B-29-1 Superfort: 1 destroyed by flak

Japanese Ships
DD Tachikaze, Bomb hits 1, on fire

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 2000 feet
Port Attack: 20 x 500 lb GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Soerabaja , at 56,104

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid spotted at 21 NM, estimated altitude 3,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 6 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5d-S Zero x 2

Allied aircraft
B-29-1 Superfort x 5

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5d-S Zero: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
B-29-1 Superfort: 3 damaged

Japanese Ships
BB Nagato, Bomb hits 1, on fire
BB Ise, Bomb hits 1, on fire

Aircraft Attacking:
5 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 2000 feet
Port Attack: 20 x 500 lb GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Soerabaja , at 56,104

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid detected at 23 NM, estimated altitude 5,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 7 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5d-S Zero x 1

Allied aircraft
B-29-1 Superfort x 3

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
B-29-1 Superfort: 2 damaged

Japanese Ships
TK Akitsushima Maru, Bomb hits 1

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 2000 feet
Port Attack: 20 x 500 lb GP Bomb

That's 30 planes. The "destroyed by flak" message was seen 4 times and is reflected in the combat report text as well, but "damaged by balloon" was not. I can't be certain the the destroyed by flak results are not from balloons, but if so I would expect far more common "damaged by balloon" messages.

Perhaps balloons suffer from an accuracy penalty at night?

[mind_messing]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

To satisfy myself that I'm not crazy, I created a sandbox for low altitude attacks in the Downfall scenario.

An empty base (Port & AF >6, forts at level 6) was attacked by Allied 4E and daylight and at night, at 5000ft.

Daylight raids suffered notable damage from balloons, as seen by the message in the replay.

The same raid conducted at night does see balloons have an effect, but at an extremely impaired level versus daylight attacks, to the point that it's irrelevant.

Is there any reason for this?

If anything, balloons should be far more effective at disrupting low level 4E raids at night than in the day, as the visibility of the big bags of gas will make avoidance extremely difficult.

I really do suspect that there's something that isn't right in the code regarding barrage balloons. My reasoning is twofold; the balloon mechanic was added to the game after release, and there is a massive inconsistency between the effectiveness of balloons at night versus in daylight.

How about when you compare the damage done by the balloons with the damage done to the target by the bombers?

It might be that balloons are abstracted in such a way that they are more or less 'over' areas that the bombers are trying to hit. At night the bombers usually do less damage to their intended targets, meaning they had less success in getting 'over' the areas they wanted to hit, and therefore were less likely to get damaged by balloons.

Just a thought, how does it look in your data?

That doesn't explain the fact that the bombers are hitting the balloons more often in the daylight than at night.

I didn't test for accuracy with balloons present versus accuracy with balloons absent, and I'd imagine that would be extremely difficult to test for.

@ Lokasenna

I'm basing the fact that balloons DO work at night off a single combat report that recorded a B-29 as lost due to flak attacking an empty base with balloons present - I don't recall if there was ever a "destroyed by balloon" message. That's a single plane lost attacking a high fort level base at 5000ft out of fifty or so attacking aircraft.

As for your Soerabaja strikes, the docked ships would be contributing their AA to the defense and confounding the issue.

My testbed scenario involved attacking an empty base at 5000ft at night with balloons present. The impact of balloons on accuracy did not appear to exist versus comparative strikes on bases with balloons absent.

Surely balloons should be more effective working at night than the daylight though? It's a bit harder that big flying gasbag when you're flying at low level at night?

IDK, but suffice to say there's something not right here. It might be our understanding of how balloons work in the day/night air phases, or it may be something with the code.

[witpqs]

@mind_messing

I think you are not understanding my question. Let me try stating it a different way.

• Bombers sometimes achieve hits on target.
• A hit on target implies that the bomber successfully got over the target.
• Barrage balloons are 'over' the target.
• There should be some degree of correlation (plus chance variations plus other factors) with bomber hits on targets vs barrage balloon hits on bombers. Is there?
• It is more difficult for bombers to successfully get over the target at night.
• Therefore there should be fewer barrage balloon hits at night, BUT
• There should still be some reasonable correlation between bomber hits on target and barrage balloon hits on bombers. Is there?

If there is such a correlation during the day but not during the night, then I would suspect there is a problem. If there is roughly the same correlation both day and night, I would suspect there is not a problem.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

@mind_messing

I think you are not understanding my question. Let me try stating it a different way.

• Bombers sometimes achieve hits on target.
• A hit on target implies that the bomber successfully got over the target.
• Barrage balloons are 'over' the target.
• There should be some degree of correlation (plus chance variations plus other factors) with bomber hits on targets vs barrage balloon hits on bombers. Is there?
• It is more difficult for bombers to successfully get over the target at night.
• Therefore there should be fewer barrage balloon hits at night, BUT
• There should still be some reasonable correlation between bomber hits on target and barrage balloon hits on bombers. Is there?

If there is such a correlation during the day but not during the night, then I would suspect there is a problem. If there is roughly the same correlation both day and night, I would suspect there is not a problem.

Is that actually how barrage balloons work?

But if it is... my impression is that no, it is not related. Still getting plenty of hits.

[mind_messing]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

@mind_messing

I think you are not understanding my question. Let me try stating it a different way.

• Bombers sometimes achieve hits on target.
• A hit on target implies that the bomber successfully got over the target.
• Barrage balloons are 'over' the target.
• There should be some degree of correlation (plus chance variations plus other factors) with bomber hits on targets vs barrage balloon hits on bombers. Is there?
• It is more difficult for bombers to successfully get over the target at night.
• Therefore there should be fewer barrage balloon hits at night, BUT
• There should still be some reasonable correlation between bomber hits on target and barrage balloon hits on bombers. Is there?

If there is such a correlation during the day but not during the night, then I would suspect there is a problem. If there is roughly the same correlation both day and night, I would suspect there is not a problem.

Ah, I see.

I recorded only air-frame damage/losses, not accuracy on the target. I think it's a bad measure anyways, as in daylight raids you typically get 3-4 big strikes with dozens if not hundreds of hits, whereas night attacks are dozens of penny packet raids.

There should be some degree of correlation (plus chance variations plus other factors) with bomber hits on targets vs barrage balloon hits on bombers. Is there?

From a purely observational standpoint, I don't think there is. The night raids conducted against balloons did not appear different from night-time raids against any other target. As I said, I did not record bomb hits, so this is a statement of dubious value.

There should still be some reasonable correlation between bomber hits on target and barrage balloon hits on bombers. Is there?

I have an example CR of a B-29 raid against just balloons. In all intents and purposes it's indistinguishable from any other night-time raid. I'll dig it up if I can, and you can see for yourself.

I suspect that the process by which balloons work is as follows: plane hits balloon > balloon causes damage > damage interferes with accuracy. If the planes aren't hitting balloons at night, they might not be impacting on accuracy.

The short and the long of it is that bombers seem perfectly able to get hits on the target at night, they just don't seem to ever hit the balloons...

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

ORIGINAL: witpqs

@mind_messing

I think you are not understanding my question. Let me try stating it a different way.

• Bombers sometimes achieve hits on target.
• A hit on target implies that the bomber successfully got over the target.
• Barrage balloons are 'over' the target.
• There should be some degree of correlation (plus chance variations plus other factors) with bomber hits on targets vs barrage balloon hits on bombers. Is there?
• It is more difficult for bombers to successfully get over the target at night.
• Therefore there should be fewer barrage balloon hits at night, BUT
• There should still be some reasonable correlation between bomber hits on target and barrage balloon hits on bombers. Is there?

If there is such a correlation during the day but not during the night, then I would suspect there is a problem. If there is roughly the same correlation both day and night, I would suspect there is not a problem.

Is that actually how barrage balloons work?

But if it is... my impression is that no, it is not related. Still getting plenty of hits.

That is my impression also.

Daylight raids get hits as well, but they also smack into balloons pretty regularly if the conditions are right.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

ORIGINAL: witpqs

@mind_messing

I think you are not understanding my question. Let me try stating it a different way.

• Bombers sometimes achieve hits on target.
• A hit on target implies that the bomber successfully got over the target.
• Barrage balloons are 'over' the target.
• There should be some degree of correlation (plus chance variations plus other factors) with bomber hits on targets vs barrage balloon hits on bombers. Is there?
• It is more difficult for bombers to successfully get over the target at night.
• Therefore there should be fewer barrage balloon hits at night, BUT
• There should still be some reasonable correlation between bomber hits on target and barrage balloon hits on bombers. Is there?

If there is such a correlation during the day but not during the night, then I would suspect there is a problem. If there is roughly the same correlation both day and night, I would suspect there is not a problem.

Ah, I see.

I recorded only air-frame damage/losses, not accuracy on the target. I think it's a bad measure anyways, as in daylight raids you typically get 3-4 big strikes with dozens if not hundreds of hits, whereas night attacks are dozens of penny packet raids.

There should be some degree of correlation (plus chance variations plus other factors) with bomber hits on targets vs barrage balloon hits on bombers. Is there?

From a purely observational standpoint, I don't think there is. The night raids conducted against balloons did not appear different from night-time raids against any other target. As I said, I did not record bomb hits, so this is a statement of dubious value.

There should still be some reasonable correlation between bomber hits on target and barrage balloon hits on bombers. Is there?

I have an example CR of a B-29 raid against just balloons. In all intents and purposes it's indistinguishable from any other night-time raid. I'll dig it up if I can, and you can see for yourself.

I suspect that the process by which balloons work is as follows: plane hits balloon > balloon causes damage > damage interferes with accuracy. If the planes aren't hitting balloons at night, they might not be impacting on accuracy.

The short and the long of it is that bombers seem perfectly able to get hits on the target at night, they just don't seem to ever hit the balloons...

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

ORIGINAL: witpqs

@mind_messing

I think you are not understanding my question. Let me try stating it a different way.

• Bombers sometimes achieve hits on target.
• A hit on target implies that the bomber successfully got over the target.
• Barrage balloons are 'over' the target.
• There should be some degree of correlation (plus chance variations plus other factors) with bomber hits on targets vs barrage balloon hits on bombers. Is there?
• It is more difficult for bombers to successfully get over the target at night.
• Therefore there should be fewer barrage balloon hits at night, BUT
• There should still be some reasonable correlation between bomber hits on target and barrage balloon hits on bombers. Is there?

If there is such a correlation during the day but not during the night, then I would suspect there is a problem. If there is roughly the same correlation both day and night, I would suspect there is not a problem.

Is that actually how barrage balloons work?

But if it is... my impression is that no, it is not related. Still getting plenty of hits.

That is my impression also.

Daylight raids get hits as well, but they also smack into balloons pretty regularly if the conditions are right.

Got it.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

ORIGINAL: witpqs

@mind_messing

I think you are not understanding my question. Let me try stating it a different way.

• Bombers sometimes achieve hits on target.
• A hit on target implies that the bomber successfully got over the target.
• Barrage balloons are 'over' the target.
• There should be some degree of correlation (plus chance variations plus other factors) with bomber hits on targets vs barrage balloon hits on bombers. Is there?
• It is more difficult for bombers to successfully get over the target at night.
• Therefore there should be fewer barrage balloon hits at night, BUT
• There should still be some reasonable correlation between bomber hits on target and barrage balloon hits on bombers. Is there?

If there is such a correlation during the day but not during the night, then I would suspect there is a problem. If there is roughly the same correlation both day and night, I would suspect there is not a problem.

Is that actually how barrage balloons work?

But if it is... my impression is that no, it is not related. Still getting plenty of hits.

Don't know. Just a reasonable guess.

[mind_messing]

Essentially, this all stems from me noticing that daylight raids under the right conditions leads to planes bouncing off balloons pretty regularly, though they still get hits on target.

At night, you're still getting planes hitting the mark, but balloons suddenly become an non-entity. It's as if one leg of the base defense tripod (CAP, flak, balloons) suddenly disappears, and that has ramifications for both the Allies and Japan.

[michaelm75au]

Balloons 'attack' planes at or less than 6000' during the FLAK stage of an attack. It does not matter if day or night.

[michaelm75au]

The message just happens NOT to be displayed in the Night phase, just AM/PM. Oversight.

[mind_messing]

ORIGINAL: michaelm

The message just happens NOT to be displayed in the Night phase, just AM/PM. Oversight.

Perfect, thanks very much Michael!

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

ORIGINAL: michaelm

The message just happens NOT to be displayed in the Night phase, just AM/PM. Oversight.

Perfect, thanks very much Michael!

Reading the change log in the latest patch, this is now fixed.[:)]