Vichy or no Vichy?

[Rand6897]

Again, I'm playing a solitary game as an introduction to WiF. Reading the rules and manual are one
thing, digesting the information another. So, I ask players which typically give a slightly more
condensed explanation.

It is '40 July/August. Germany failed to take Paris with a +8 DRM in May/June. Instead of going
after it again (need to move up air) the Germans use their first impulse this turn to mop up and push south. I don't
see much that would prevent a France surrender at the end of this turn even without taking Paris.

So, Vichy or not. Again, not fully knowing the rules and having not had much experience with sea box
warfare as of yet; my ability to see the whole picture is lacking.

My initial thought is finish the French off. The drawback being the Brits could establish bases in
West Africa and more easily supply them through Atlantic coast ports. Belgium is aligned with France
and has set up their government in the Congo. So I'm not sure what this means regarding the Free
French.

The Italians have been horribly mismanaged. What is the play?

Thanks.

[rkr1958]

My rule of thumb is if you plan on pivoting east after the fall of France and going for 1941 Barbarossa then declare Vichy. If you plan on closing the Med, which means the capture of Gibraltar probably through Spain and a 1942 or later Barbarossa then don't.

[AlbertN]

Take Paris anyhow.
It's +1 Factory for you, and eventually +1 Resource from Spain trade (but you need either Italian convoys for it; or the railroad down to Spain).
It will prevent too Bearn to be interned (which is a CV or a TRS to the USA - depending if they convert them).

Seize Metz too. Another resource. Economics are the long term juice of this game.
Grab as many resources as you can and ensure they're linked to your factories - if Germany has another impulse.
That 6 moving Panzer at the Channel can rush to Brest - shove out of the port these ships. It could give the French player doubts if you want to Vichy or not too. Hold it as a variable for them (Though usually from your builds they know if you want Gib or not).

In general I favor to close the Med anyhow - I just like the extra resources and production Axis gets from Spain.
Especially as Soviet Union in MWiF is very, very hard to conquest (Best of luck reaching Novosibirks. The Soviets need to fuck up royally!)

[paulderynck]

Good idea if you want to continue on through Spain and take Gibraltar, but that probably means no war in Russia until 1942. Also the route through North Africa becomes possible but if you aren't at least threatening the conquest of Algeria by now, that will take time and you'd still need to be willing to do repeated low odds invasions in a long turn, in order to take Gibraltar, but the advantage there is you could then align Spain.

Disadvantage is the French fleet sticks around and there's no chance for the Japanese to get French Indo-China or Madagascar (of course they might go FF anyway).

So conquering France goes well with a "Close the Med" strategy which usually means a Barb42 or a Sitzkrieg will follow. It does not go well with a Barb41.

[Rand6897]

It is clear enough what happens regarding the French possessions and Vichy and Free French forces
if Vichy is created. Plenty in the rules regarding Vichy. I'm not sure what happens if Vichy is not created and how the alignment with
the conquered Belgium in the Congo does?

Reading Cohen reply I get a bit confused. If I bypass Paris and taker enough factories forcing a
French surrender, Germany will gain control of Paris and Metz facilities after the surrender don't they?

So, if Vichy is not created...

1]Does French North Africa/Syria/Indo-China/etc. come under Axis control, provided the absence of Brits. They are not
Free French are they? Couldn't Japanese forces enter Indo-China after they align with Germany?

2]What happens to the French fleet if Vichy is not created. They surrender and are removed from play
aren't they?

3]Do Free French Units ever appear?

Many thanks

[AlbertN]

Surrender is after production though.
If the France surrenders I am happy - it's not Vichy, they retain their fleet but US takes half of the chits and in the end all of continental France is mine.

Usually Japan seizing Indochina gives 2 chits (more often than not) to USA for 1 resource (which could be needed) but in general Japan has already bases in that sea zone via Siam / Canton.
Magadascar is another tale - but it's more US Chits (For how a white print GARR in Diego Suarez and to use Madagascar bases to strike with surprise at CW shipping all around the Afrika can be crippling to their convoys).

On the longer run to close the Med though means Italy is safer and they can contribute with their production and Force Pool to the Axis war effort much longer.

About Paris, IF you do not have a German unit in Paris, you cannot declare Vichy.
It's a Factory hex for you (red factory) and Spain trade is triggered by Paris holding.

In the current state of the game, Free French units do not appear, they can be though French units that sit there (let's say France ships troops in some corner of the world and the region ends up FF, these units will automatically be FF units). Obviously it's a choice, any unit sent away is a unit less fighting in France proper.

[Courtenay]

France may surrender without Paris being captured, but that is at the Allied player's option. To conquer any country, you have to take all home country printed factories.

Now, it might be to the Allies' advantage to surrender, because France gets to keep all of its colonies. But it is not automatic.

The French should always try to get units into Toulouse, which is very hard to attack and helps the defense of Spain considerably.

[Rand6897]

Part of my confusion was I had read rules for conquered, then after a lapse read the rules for surrender and got crossed up.
Happens when you can only play for brief periods at a time.

Now two questions (thanks again):

1] If Germany takes all the factories in France and is conquered, is it a complete conquest? France is aligned with Belgium in the Congo and still has possessions overseas.

2) In any incomplete conquest (not just the situation I'm currently trying to grasp), the rules say "units are now moved to
nearest friendly hex". Are there movement restrictions, for instance what if the move would normally require sea lift or passage through hostile or neutral territory.

[paulderynck]

1) No - still incomplete conquest (because there are lots of aligned countries that can be new home countries) and US gets full chits as opposed to half if the surrender is voluntary.

2) It is out and out teleportation.

[Courtenay]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

2) It is out and out teleportation.

Suddenly I am trying to keep the image of an old British police box out of my mind, and failing....

[paulderynck]

Beam 'em up, Scotty.

[Centuur]

France should never surrender to Germany. It is important to get as many US entry chits as possible.

Also: to conquer France, Germany needs to take Toulouse. Now, that is a very good hex to defend. France looks to be in a position where it can't continue the fight any longer, except for Lyons and the Toulouse area. I would therefore retreat French units not in a French factory city towards the Toulouse area. If the British still have a BEF at their disposal, sail it towards Bordeaux-Bayonne.

The Garonne river line is nice to defend and it gives Germany something to think about: to declare Vichy (and get rid of the French opposition) or not to declare Vichy...

[Jagdtiger14]

Centuur: To avoid that, Germany can declare Vichy, then get rid of Vichy at the first opportunity after that.

[paulderynck]

Yes - for double the US entry cost.

[Ur_Vile_WEdge]

I wouldn't quite say never. IIRC, the surrender rule was implemented to stop this gamey trick of Germany mauling France, getting to the Pyrenees, attacking Spain, and then declaring Vichy once the German army was already past the mountains. IN a situation like that, you'll probably want to surrender, keep your fleet.

[Jagdtiger14]

ur-vile-wedge: Why is that gamey? That's what Germany should have done in real life.

Paul: While it is double the US entry chits, its still the same amount as it would ultimately be anyway...only its the valuable 1940 chits and much sooner. I think the Germans would still wipe out anything in Toulouse/Garonne...but it would cost them an extra turn or so.

[Centuur]

ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14

ur-vile-wedge: Why is that gamey? That's what Germany should have done in real life.

Paul: While it is double the US entry chits, its still the same amount as it would ultimately be anyway...only its the valuable 1940 chits and much sooner. I think the Germans would still wipe out anything in Toulouse/Garonne...but it would cost them an extra turn or so.

That's the thing, isn't it. Messing up the German timetable is the best thing the French can do...

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14

ur-vile-wedge: Why is that gamey? That's what Germany should have done in real life.

Paul: While it is double the US entry chits, its still the same amount as it would ultimately be anyway...only its the valuable 1940 chits and much sooner. I think the Germans would still wipe out anything in Toulouse/Garonne...but it would cost them an extra turn or so.

Not sure about the same amount anyway.

I have often seen Vichy collapsed long after the US is at total war so the chits wouldn't matter then.

Also the last time I played France, I had a 6 factor (GARR or INF, can't recall), the 5-4 MTN and a div in Toulouse. The only thing better would have been a 3-factor AA or AT instead of the Div.

The Germans declared Vichy and gave up all thought of going for Spain.