An example of unreality

[SoulBlazer]

It really makes me wonder why the guy plays the game at all when all we see him do is complain.

[Chiteng]

Originally posted by SoulBlazer
It really makes me wonder why the guy plays the game at all when all we see him do is complain.

Because if enough people complain, possibly Matrix will change it.
At the very least they might consider the effect on WitP.

If I can take out a Jap CV with a strike by 9 B-17 and CAP
is completely ignored. Then I would be a fool to use a
USN CV.

That is the ultimate and logical conclusion, isnt it =)

[Nikademus]

well at least he plays it. Give him that much. Some complainers done even own the game

My only issue vis-a-vis all th endless historical comparison regarding level bombers vs anchored/docked ships is that while hits did occasionally happen, the tendancy in UV for small #'s of level bombers (avg usually around 9 bombers) to score at least one hit or more per raid tends to strike me as a bit unrealistic. Such consistant pinpoint accuracy during that era was hard to come by. (no JDAM's )

You remember our game Soulblazer? day after day, 6-9 hudsons, coming into Buin or Lae, bomb hit....bomb hit, bomb hit, 2 bomb hits, 4 bomb hits. Sheesh. Very annoying. Obviously there is a rule of thumb about docking ships within range of enemy air, but i interpret this rule as being "substantial" enemy air......pinprick raids one can do little about and should cause the occasional headache but the cumulative effects of all those singular or couple of bomb hits starts too add up till players have to throw their hands in the air.

Thats where the B-17 issue comes in. It can do the same thing but has much greater range than a Hudson.....the result is that even in areas of good Japanese aircover, it still makes it very hard to deploy routine shipping because those 6-9 bombers can slip in, score a hit or two per raid and repeat.

A far cry from the 1% total score by B-17's during the whole of the Guadalcanal campaign.

Just a tad bit too accurate IMHO

I got annoyed enough during our game that i put 50 A6M's on CAP in the hopes of driving them off or at least, disrupting that cherished aim courtasy of a few bullet holes near the bombedier

result: no effect on the JDAM's

In the end i was forced to commit a large naval force to escorting the transports. That distracted the pinpricks, even shot a couple down and finally appeared to cause enough disruption to shake the JDAM's off.

Mind you again....these were SMALL raids.....not big ones.

For later war scenerios, involving much larger #'s of bombers i can see the occasional to semi-frequent hits......the cumulative effect being to make ports within range untendable after a period of time. (i.e. Rabaul) But right now, kind of like escort fighters, you dont need to wait or concentrate to get that effect already

[Chiteng]

Originally posted by crsutton
"With the Guadacalan campaign in full swing, our fighter pilots became desperate, but failed to achieve any notable advance in increasing the number of destroyed American bombers...On numerous occasious the Boeings flew undaunted on their bombing and reconnaissance missions despite the attacks of Zero fighters which swarmed about them and which the enemy's heavy machine guns too often destroyed."

"The four-engine B-17 and B-24 bombers were, generally speaking, the most difficult enemy aircraft for the Zeros to shoot down.....The fierce resistance with which the heavy American bombers opposed our fighters, unlike that of our own land based medium attack bombers, was a most serous problem. In my opinion, which is shared by many Japanese combat officers, the ability of the B-17 and the B-24 to defend themselves and carry on their intended missions despite enemy fighter opposition was a deciding factor in the final outcome of the war."

Bergerude P 553

Number of fighters were not necessairly the solution as the Japanese due to the samarai tradition and poor radio coordination were not very adept at group tactics in attacking bombers-an absolute must in bringing down heavily armed big planes as the Germans were to prove.

Does not matter how many planes you are talking about. While Zeros and Oscars were nimble little planes, they simply did not have the armor or armament to close with Allied heavies and really were not that great attacking mediums as well.

You are barking up the wrong tree here.

I dont agree.

[Chiteng]

Well it is MY hope that we are allowed to control PRODUCTION
in WitP. If the B-17 can do EVERYTHING, and indeed if it
can hit a CV at Rabual with a strike from Cairn, why the hell
bother risking a classic CV vs CV encounter.
Why not simply build MORE B-17?, in fact lets validate
the Harris school of thought and simply clear the Soloman
Islands with air strikes from Australia? And Nomea.

Because if 9 can get a hit, then logicly 99 can get even more hits.
Why even make medium bombers?

Just devote the ENTIRE WAR EFFORT to the production of
a weapon system that the enemy has no counter to.
Then simply sweep the seas.

[TIMJOT]

I havent had a B-17 hit a CV since downloading the latest patch. I think things if not perfect, are close enough in the current version.

BTW, there is a historical intance of a level bomber sinking a
semi-CV. The Langley was hit by a string a bombs stem to stern dropped by a Betty.

[Chiteng]

Originally posted by TIMJOT
I havent had a B-17 hit a CV since downloading the latest patch. I think things if not perfect, are close enough in the current version.

BTW, there is a historical intance of a level bomber sinking a
semi-CV. The Langley was hit by a string a bombs stem to stern dropped by a Betty.

Your point?

The way it is right now...the total B-17 strategy is a viable strategy. How far from reality does it need to be before
sanity reigns us in?

[madflava13]

I agree that B-17s shouldn't score hits on underway TFs EVERY raid... But I've never seen that. I've yet to see them score a single hit on a underway ship. I can see how they might score hits on ports, since your target is relatively confined and standing still, and this DID happen in real life. But Chiteng, come on... B-17s aren't invincible weapons. True the IJN player rarely shoots them down, but this is realistic. However I've been lucky to have more than 4 days in a row of B-17 raids without having to rest them for an extended period. Hardly a weapon I'd choose to devote my entire war production towards...

I think you're blowing things a little bit out of proportion.

[Chiteng]

Originally posted by madflava13
I agree that B-17s shouldn't score hits on underway TFs EVERY raid... But I've never seen that. I've yet to see them score a single hit on a underway ship. I can see how they might score hits on ports, since your target is relatively confined and standing still, and this DID happen in real life. But Chiteng, come on... B-17s aren't invincible weapons. True the IJN player rarely shoots them down, but this is realistic. However I've been lucky to have more than 4 days in a row of B-17 raids without having to rest them for an extended period. Hardly a weapon I'd choose to devote my entire war production towards...

I think you're blowing things a little bit out of proportion.

I dont. In UV the Japs get TEN CV to play with. If I can attrit
that force down to say 5 damaged and 5 effective I would be a fool to NOT do that. Especially if I can do it with cheap shots
from Australia that dont hurt me in any way. Why NOT do that?

See, once a Jap CV is damaged its out (if the Jap is wise)
It really doesnt matter if it sunk although that is a plus.
The point is that he no longer has it. It is worth 99 plane strikes
at 6k to get rid of a Jap CV. even if you lost 10% of the strike.
That is my whole point. There WILL be players that do exactly that. That is the wargaming mentality. If it isnt forbidden, ride it into the ground.

Because it is alot easier to replace a B-17, than an Essex class
CV.

[fcooke]

Read up on the battle of Midway. Genda tells an interesting tale where a flight of 17s from Midway attacks the 4 IJN CVs - the CAP went after the 17s - didn't get any of them, and the 17s put water spouts up all over a couple of IJN CVs. Yes - they didn't hit, but Genda couldn't even see the other CVs because of the near misses. Not hard to change a couple of near misses into hits. And four CVs worth of CAP didn't down even one 17.....

[herbieh]

In a PBEM game Im playing my opponent regularily uses his B17s on 100ft strafing runs, last night he hit 4 aps with 500lb bombs at rennel island.

I can live with it, its all part of the game, Im going to go for an auto victory, all part of the game.

I was hoping that his B17s were still recovering from the last raid, got it wrong.

I personally think that Matrix has got the B17 vs zero right, maybe we could look at it for WIP a slightly different way, say restricting the No that could operate from a single airbase at a time, they do take up a lot of space. Restricting them to say, 40 max per field would make it harder for them to totally max out a area or jap base.
For the historical gonards probably not acceptable, but Im just casting around for some ideas to help the game

B17s from lunganville pounding me- answer-capture Lunganville:D
Have fun guys, beer is good

[madflava13]

I can come up with lots of hypothetical situations where someone could do something that isn't "fair". That doesn't mean the game is broken. If you're playing against someone who does that, either stop playing or make house rules. Everyone has house rules. You have to have them precisely because not everything can be designed into the game. In order to make some things work as they did historically, there will necessarily be cheats or unforseen uses that result. This is normal in every game. Some of these can be addressed through patches, some through better design, and some you just have to agree as fair players not to use. Thats life, nothing will ever be perfect. UV is pretty **** close if you ask me. What you seem so hung up on is easily addressed without redesigning the whole game.

It sounds to me like you want a game that is so overdesigned we might as well put both sides on computer control and just watch.

[Chiteng]

Originally posted by madflava13
I can come up with lots of hypothetical situations where someone could do something that isn't "fair". That doesn't mean the game is broken. If you're playing against someone who does that, either stop playing or make house rules. Everyone has house rules. You have to have them precisely because not everything can be designed into the game. In order to make some things work as they did historically, there will necessarily be cheats or unforseen uses that result. This is normal in every game. Some of these can be addressed through patches, some through better design, and some you just have to agree as fair players not to use. Thats life, nothing will ever be perfect. UV is pretty **** close if you ask me. What you seem so hung up on is easily addressed without redesigning the whole game.

It sounds to me like you want a game that is so overdesigned we might as well put both sides on computer control and just watch.

Only if you believe that changing the way B-17 work will do that.
Only if you believe the purpose of a simulation is to SIMULATE.
If you want beer and pretzels there is always Axis and Allies.

House rules dont work, accidents happen, let alone cheating.

[Chiteng]

Originally posted by herbieh
In a PBEM game Im playing my opponent regularily uses his B17s on 100ft strafing runs, last night he hit 4 aps with 500lb bombs at rennel island.

I can live with it, its all part of the game, Im going to go for an auto victory, all part of the game.

I was hoping that his B17s were still recovering from the last raid, got it wrong.

I personally think that Matrix has got the B17 vs zero right, maybe we could look at it for WIP a slightly different way, say restricting the No that could operate from a single airbase at a time, they do take up a lot of space. Restricting them to say, 40 max per field would make it harder for them to totally max out a area or jap base.
For the historical gonards probably not acceptable, but Im just casting around for some ideas to help the game

B17s from lunganville pounding me- answer-capture Lunganville:D
Have fun guys, beer is good

If we are going to accept that B-17 cant be shot down,
I can postulate a Zero pilot simply ramming a B-17.
That would be VERY effective. Likely more effective than
traditional dogfights, and in keeping with Bushido tradition.

I find what I just suggested in no way more offensive than
what has actually been implemented.

[Nikademus]

I should probably clarify that the examples i was talking about were indeed docked ships. As i said, dont have a problem with the occasional to semi-occasional hit depending on raid size, but the consistant penny packet hits by 6-9 planes on small transports, even anchored ones is a bit extreme. Even with CAP cover and general "air superiority" you cant stop every plane from attacking....their JDAM like accuracy in such small #'s does belie the challenge of placing a stick of bombs against a small target again and again with such consistancy Its almost like skip bombing

At sea, i have to agree with the others.....level bombers vs TF's are much much better now....few if any hits are obtained at the default 6k altitude.

[Mr.Frag]

http://www.airforcehistory.hq.af.mil/te ... o_pubs.htm

Go read 'em yourself, i'm not interesting in posting upwards of 6000 pages of text

[Nikademus]

Originally posted by Mr.Frag
http://www.airforcehistory.hq.af.mil/te ... o_pubs.htm

Go read 'em yourself, i'm not interesting in posting upwards of 6000 pages of text

Facinating. It says here that during the siege of Rabaul that the 5th Air Force resorted to dropping water balloons on their targets due to a shortage of bombs.

[PzB74]

I remember that I got quite annoyed when I played 'Future Wars' on my Amiga way back in time: I spent hours trying to find a tiny spot on a huge wall map where I could place a tincy wincy little flag that unlocked a secret door :p

A few years later I got grossly dissappointed when I loaded up 'Campaign' and discovered what utter piece of crap it was.

Western Front - the follow up to War in Russia was also a true downer.....

When my UV cd was delivered at my door - I payed a fortune for that - in two pieces, bent & broken....I experienced an even greater blow to morale.

When you guys manage to produce hundreds of pages nagging back and forth about how un/realistic it is that a B17 dodges a swarm of Zeros and plants a bomb hit now and then - I feel such gratitude: I don't feel the slightest annoyance for such (un?)historical facts

On the contrary: I feel delighted at the thought of what excellent game UV is and how lucky I am that someone made such a great effort to create what I desired the most

Rewind time and run WWII 500 times over and see what results you can get! Then you can spend 10 years creating statistics that tells how (un)realistic every single bomb impact really was!

The sooner you accept the fact that life's a bit**, then you marry one and then you die.... the less offense you'll take everytime the door hits you in the a$$ on the way out!

[madflava13]

Chiteng, if house rules don't work, I suggest you either find a new opponent, or get out of the PBEM business... I've never had a problem PBEMing against anyone from this board - I find that most people are pretty darn honorable, even if they're losing. Maybe you've had bad experiences, but at this point, all I see is you bitching for bitching's sake...

I echo PzB's statements - I believe that boy's onto something!

[Chiteng]

Originally posted by PzB
I remember that I got quite annoyed when I played 'Future Wars' on my Amiga way back in time: I spent hours trying to find a tiny spot on a huge wall map where I could place a tincy wincy little flag that unlocked a secret door :p

A few years later I got grossly dissappointed when I loaded up 'Campaign' and discovered what utter piece of crap it was.

Western Front - the follow up to War in Russia was also a true downer.....

When my UV cd was delivered at my door - I payed a fortune for that - in two pieces, bent & broken....I experienced an even greater blow to morale.

When you guys manage to produce hundreds of pages nagging back and forth about how un/realistic it is that a B17 dodges a swarm of Zeros and plants a bomb hit now and then - I feel such gratitude: I don't feel the slightest annoyance for such (un?)historical facts

On the contrary: I feel delighted at the thought of what excellent game UV is and how lucky I am that someone made such a great effort to create what I desired the most

Rewind time and run WWII 500 times over and see what results you can get! Then you can spend 10 years creating statistics that tells how (un)realistic every single bomb impact really was!

The sooner you accept the fact that life's a bit**, then you marry one and then you die.... the less offense you'll take everytime the door hits you in the a$$ on the way out!

How odd you didnt say that before the Jap subs were nerfed.