4 player E-mail: AAR

[Mayhemizer_slith]

No more planes for Axis.

Kiel is good for damaged ship.

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: Mayhemizer

But it was in the sea area when search rolls were made. Is it enough?

No.

RAC: 15.1 Surprise effects
Naval units
If a port attack or a naval combat at sea only involves units controlled by major powers declaring war, and
the major powers they are declaring war on, the surprised units always get 0 surprise points. The attacking major
powers get the normal number (this will increase the number of net surprise points the attacker can spend, if there is
any combat).

[Orm]

CW, any aircraft support?

No air support.

[warspite1]

What do the Axis want to do?

[Mayhemizer_slith]

I want to sink them all! So I include them all to combat [:)]

[warspite1]

Okay so is the surprise situation right?

[Mayhemizer_slith]

I think someone need tell that us before we continue. This looks like a massacre, but if Polish ships should not effect to surprise points it goes wrong big time.

[AllenK]

I'm wondering whether it comes down to this from RAC.

Major powers and minor countries are surprised when a major power declares war on them, even if they are already at war with someone else. However, they are not surprised by a major power or minor country they are currently at war with.

Possibly it's the inclusion of the Poles to initiate the combat that has done this.

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: AllenK

I'm wondering whether it comes down to this from RAC.

Major powers and minor countries are surprised when a major power declares war on them, even if they are already at war with someone else. However, they are not surprised by a major power or minor country they are currently at war with.

Possibly it's the inclusion of the Poles to initiate the combat that has done this.

You may be correct that is the cause. But, if so, my reading of the rules classify that as a bug for the first combat.

[warspite1]

Okay I am going to leave it there tonight. The Blucher result being wrong (which it seems it was) was bad enough but this could be far worse and so we need to ensure the rules are correct.

Maybe one of the grogs can add their view overnight?

[Mayhemizer_slith]

I agree, let's wait until we are sure.

If the current result is correct, I believe I need to use 4 points to decrease AA fire to NE and remaining points used to increase damage gives me result X, which I target to the ship that is carrying HQ Gort.

[AllenK]

It would seem that using the Poles to initiate combat meant the Germans were not surprised. If the German's are not surprised, then the rest of the results are probably implemented correctly.

What happens if you go back to your auto-saves (Phasing Player Choose Sea Area, or something like that) and initiate combat with a CW ship or plane? Input the same search rolls and what happens regarding surprise points?

[Mayhemizer_slith]

I believe Polish being in the sea area is the reason.

[AllenK]

I think it's using them to initiate combat, rather than simply being there but re-running from the auto-save would clarify that.

[brian brian]

A good rules lawyers question, it would turn on whether "involved" brings in all units in the sea area, or only units in boxes in the actual combat round. Activating with the Polish ship adds a further wrinkle to the question.

I can't help you with the answer definitively but my gut feeling would be that 'involved' brings in all units in the sea area, before search dice include or exclude boxes.

[Courtenay]

It is my understanding, which may be wrong, that simply having the Poles in the sea area negates surprise. The fact that they initiated the combat makes no difference.

[Centuur]

Here is RAW on surprise:

If a port attack or a naval combat at sea only involves units controlled
by major powers declaring war, and the major powers they are
declaring war on, the surprised units always get 0 surprise points. The
attacking major powers get the normal number (this will increase the
number of net surprise points the attacker can spend, if there is any
combat).

That leaves the question: what is naval combat. Here is RAW again:

11.5 Naval combat
11.5.1 Combat sequence
After you have made all your naval moves, you can, if you wish,
initiate naval combat. A side can only try to initiate combat once in
each sea area each naval combat step (there can be any number of
interception combat attempts during naval movement).
You can’t try to initiate naval combat at all if you chose a land or pass
action. However, your units can take part in any combat that another
major power initiates.
Choose a sea area and initiate a combat there. You can only choose an
area if it contains at least one unit from each side that are at war with
each other (etc. etc. etc.).

Therefore: Germany is not surprised in the North Sea, since there are Polish ships in the sea area with which they are at war. The search rolls are part of naval combat...

[warspite1]

15.1 Surprise Effects ….naval combat at sea only involves units controlled by major powers declaring war, and the major powers they are declaring war on, the surprised units always get 0 surprise points.


I follow your logic, but is that not negated by this? The Poles are controlled by the CW.

[warspite1]

Anyway, I've sent an e-mail to Harry (hopefully he will provide a definitive answer).

Part of me hopes the Allies interpretation is right - but mostly I hope the game has been coded as per the rules. Bad news for the Allies [:(] - but good for MWIF [:)]

[quiritus]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Anyway, I've sent an e-mail to Harry (hopefully he will provide a definitive answer).

Part of me hopes the Allies interpretation is right - but mostly I hope the game has been coded as per the rules. Bad news for the Allies [:(] - but good for MWIF [:)]

i think here the trouble is poland initiate combat not UK: this is a poland action, as poland is not conquered, so are poland ship not yet CW, to wich Royal navy partecipate.

and as you have direct line with harry, can i send a pm with same Raw question that every time are discussed in our board game group?