Sqz stands down. The AAR is now concluded. Sqz (A) vs. obvert (J)

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

I think there's special code around the VR squadrons.

Yes.

I'm not expert on their use, so I'll defer to you.

[Macclan5]

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

I need to understand replenishment groups on CVE's. I really don't know how they work. Looking over a number of them I was confused as to how they had been set up. For example, most of the CVE's have a capacity for 28 aircraft, but I'm finding a large number that have 56 aircraft aboard. The composition is usually 28 fighters and 28 dive or torpedo bombers, with the fighters set to CAP. Wouldn't the 56 aircraft, double the capacity, prevent or severely penalize the fighter CAP?

IIRC, for CVE's to act as normal carriers you need to pull those extra planes off.

If you want them to act as replenishment platforms for your CV's you can keep the extra planes on. If your CV/CVLs are in range they will automatically fly aircraft off to replace losses (provided they're the same airframe of course).

I'll see if I can dig up the thread on how to use them. I think there's special code around the VR squadrons.

Doesn't this depend on CVE class type ?

At least in my limited experience it does.

There are 4 (?) Sangamon Class CVE that come loaded with 28 / 28 IIRC about this date. They ARE capable of launching 56 (??or less ?? is it 24/12?) plane sortie's i.e. Dive Bomb and CAP. They show up in late 42 as I recall from Panama Canal. In my opinion these baby's are very capable fleet carrier supplements while you upgrade Lex / Enterprise / Sara / Hornet / Wasp / York. That relieves any need to bring the British Carrier(s) into the Pacific in early 43.

The other 4 (?) CVEs early in the game are the Long Island Class IIRC. They also show up with as you mention 28/28 over capacity out of Portland IIRC. I ferry'ed their dive bombers to Guadalcanal, Port Moesby, and Tarawa. I use them strictly as Landing CAP support. Their Marine corps fighters were a significant boon for operations in the Gilberts and Solomans ; they almost acted like a CAP trap with the fleet carriers behind them and their success ratio was incredibly strong.

So sort them as you should have 6 - 8 or thereabouts at this date.

Anyway my 2 cents from a relative rookies.


Edit : Not Long Island class.. Bogue Class i.e. Copahee

[HansBolter]

It isn't the CVE class that determines if it can operate as a replenishment CVE, it's the air groups aboard that determine it.

In fact, those air groups can perform the carrier replenishment function from land bases.

I don't believe the Sangammomn class can launch a 56 plane strike. They have a capacity somewhere in the 30s IIRC, which means that anything more than a 15% overage will prevent offensive flight ops.

The CVEs that enter with replenishment air groups are carrying double their maximum load once the squadrons are completely filled, which means no offensive ops unless you remove one of the squads.

[Macclan5]

I think Hans has it correctly. More specifically correct [8D]

Sorry I was not commenting on the replenishment capability. Agreed.

Not sure I will ever use them in that capacity though. There are enough aircraft tender ships that work the same way if I am not mistaken.

--

The Sangammonmn class has capacity in or at 30 (low 30's) which is currently constituted as something like 20 and 12 (F4Fs and Douglas's) based on squadrons embedded onto ship at arrival.

This compared to the Bogues which have a much lower capability at only 27 (28 F4Fs being the squadron).

Hence I stand by my rookie opinion (and usage) that the Sangs are perfect "stand in carriers" for a task force. Yes they are slower and more fragile but I appreciate the defense and offense capability as I rotate (rotated) my main carriers through upgrades.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Macclan5

I think Hans has it correctly. More specifically correct [8D]

Sorry I was not commenting on the replenishment capability. Agreed.

Not sure I will ever use them in that capacity though. There are enough aircraft tender ships that work the same way if I am not mistaken.

Not sure what you mean by tender class? AKVs?

The CVEs with replenishment-coded replacement groups can fly replacements off and onto CVs and CVLs at sea. No other platform, except a CV or CVL, can do that so far as I'm aware. As Hans says, the replenishment groups can also operate from land onto CV/CVL. I use them that way most often. They can also act as regular squadrons, although their pilots often are terrible unless you swap.

[Macclan5]

Thanks Mr Moose.

Yes I suspected that the CVE class is the only capable fly on fly off.

Again from my rookie perspective:

AKVs (i.e.say within a task force of Oilers, AE ammunition ships) should be capable of replenishment as well if loaded with the correct squadron - are they not ? The planes may not be operational instantly - that is understood.

(I was recently able to convert a couple of ships as I recall in Frisco into AKVs in Jan 43 - moving them too theater now)

Therefore the use of CVE vs AKV is measured in Opportunity cost.

I would rather those squadrons on CVE flying Cap supporting a mission, or even LBA flying missions and earning experience than merely transporting planes.

Albeit this is dictated by need - but SQZ has all ships withdrawn to Pearl Harbor for refit and fuel.

It is my contention (or question) that the CVEs - especially the Sangamon Class - are especially valuable as a bridge for the high fleet carriers (again dictated by need). Their CAP and offensive capability gives you something to counter punch with.... even if just dealing with a commerce raiding sortee...

[SqzMyLemon]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

The CVEs with replenishment-coded replacement groups can fly replacements off and onto CVs and CVLs at sea. No other platform, except a CV or CVL, can do that so far as I'm aware.

Can these replenishment CVE's still fly off replacements to CV's and CVL's if over capacity? I picture the CVE's I currently have with 56 aircraft unable to fly anything off (in a purely replenishment role, understanding they can't conduct offensive missions if 15% over capacity) if their normal capacity is 28. Would I be wrong in that thinking? I'm trying to figure out whether it is counterproductive to have these CVE's committed in support of CV operations if they are overstacked? I understand the practice of basing them out of airbases for replenishment purposes, but want to make sure I'm not committing them improperly at sea to perform the same function.

Thanks for the discussion regarding the CVE's. With the fleet currently recuperating at Pearl Harbor, I have the time to figure this out before I commit the CVE's again.

[IdahoNYer]

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

The CVEs with replenishment-coded replacement groups can fly replacements off and onto CVs and CVLs at sea. No other platform, except a CV or CVL, can do that so far as I'm aware.

Can these replenishment CVE's still fly off replacements to CV's and CVL's if over capacity? I picture the CVE's I currently have with 56 aircraft unable to fly anything off (in a purely replenishment role, understanding they can't conduct offensive missions if 15% over capacity) if their normal capacity is 28. Would I be wrong in that thinking? I'm trying to figure out whether it is counterproductive to have these CVE's committed in support of CV operations if they are overstacked? I understand the practice of basing them out of airbases for replenishment purposes, but want to make sure I'm not committing them improperly at sea to perform the same function.

Thanks for the discussion regarding the CVE's. With the fleet currently recuperating at Pearl Harbor, I have the time to figure this out before I commit the CVE's again.

If you have replacement squadrons, no problem in exceeding the capacity of the CVEs. If in a replenishment TF, within air range of CVs needing replacement a/c of the right type avail on the CVEs, they will provide those planes. They WILL NOT provide any flight operations such as CAP or ASW patrol however.

[SqzMyLemon]

ORIGINAL: IdahoNYer

If you have replacement squadrons, no problem in exceeding the capacity of the CVEs. If in a replenishment TF, within air range of CVs needing replacement a/c of the right type avail on the CVEs, they will provide those planes. They WILL NOT provide any flight operations such as CAP or ASW patrol however.

Perfect! Thanks for the clarification. I understand now and can see how my predecessor's setup had me confused. I couldn't understand why a 28 capacity CVE was over-stacked with 56 aircraft, yet all the fighters were set to provide CAP which wouldn't have flown.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Macclan5

Thanks Mr Moose.

Yes I suspected that the CVE class is the only capable fly on fly off.

Again from my rookie perspective:

AKVs (i.e.say within a task force of Oilers, AE ammunition ships) should be capable of replenishment as well if loaded with the correct squadron - are they not ? The planes may not be operational instantly - that is understood.

(I was recently able to convert a couple of ships as I recall in Frisco into AKVs in Jan 43 - moving them too theater now)

Therefore the use of CVE vs AKV is measured in Opportunity cost.

I would rather those squadrons on CVE flying Cap supporting a mission, or even LBA flying missions and earning experience than merely transporting planes.

Albeit this is dictated by need - but SQZ has all ships withdrawn to Pearl Harbor for refit and fuel.

It is my contention (or question) that the CVEs - especially the Sangamon Class - are especially valuable as a bridge for the high fleet carriers (again dictated by need). Their CAP and offensive capability gives you something to counter punch with.... even if just dealing with a commerce raiding sortee...

AKVs are haulers, not carriers. They transport assembled aircraft from base to base. They can't fly off planes to carriers. The advantage of an AKV (I hope I have my designation correct) is the planes unload assembled and ready to fly. An Air Transport TF with xAKs, for example, moves them crated and they must be re-assembled at destination.

A CVE CAN act as a fly off air transporter. One-way. So you can fly US Army fighters, for example, off a CVE to a land AF. They can't come back. This can be useful.

But what we're talking about are the special replenishment air units with an 'R' in their name. VRF-123. They replenish CVs and CVLs one plane at a time, as demanded, to replace combat losses. If the CVE has one of those loaded, is in a Replenishment TF type, and is in range, they will replenish combat losses in the CV/CVL air wings one, two, three planes at a time. So far as I know Japan does not have this capability.

And to your point, CVEs can ALSO be used as mini-combat-carriers. I use them that way too. You get circa 100 of them over the course of the war. They don't have much punch alone, but ten of them do. They are extremely fragile, however. One torpedo will sometimes sink them. And the VP loss is pretty stiff.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

ORIGINAL: IdahoNYer

If you have replacement squadrons, no problem in exceeding the capacity of the CVEs. If in a replenishment TF, within air range of CVs needing replacement a/c of the right type avail on the CVEs, they will provide those planes. They WILL NOT provide any flight operations such as CAP or ASW patrol however.

Perfect! Thanks for the clarification. I understand now and can see how my predecessor's setup had me confused. I couldn't understand why a 28 capacity CVE was over-stacked with 56 aircraft, yet all the fighters were set to provide CAP which wouldn't have flown.

Often a fatal assumption. When I'm going to use a CVE as a Replenishment asset I just leave the air wing it comes with as is. Don't mess with it. Has always worked as advertised.

[SqzMyLemon]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

But what we're talking about are the special replenishment air units with an 'R' in their name. VRF-123. They replenish CVs and CVLs one plane at a time, as demanded, to replace combat losses. If the CVE has one of those loaded, is in a Replenishment TF type, and is in range, they will replenish combat losses in the CV/CVL air wings one, two, three planes at a time. So far as I know Japan does not have this capability.

One last question regarding this statement. You mentioned the pilots were generally pretty bad when assigned to the replenishment squadrons. When they transfer over to replace losses on a CV or CVL, will the reserve pilots on the carrier which may be better experienced take over, or does the pilot from the replenishment squadron now become a member of the carrier air wing? I'd have to go in and manually set him to squadron reserve to keep him out of ops?

If I recall, it looked like Historiker had already replaced the replenishment squadrons with more experienced pilots. I might be good on this point if so.

[bomccarthy]

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

But what we're talking about are the special replenishment air units with an 'R' in their name. VRF-123. They replenish CVs and CVLs one plane at a time, as demanded, to replace combat losses. If the CVE has one of those loaded, is in a Replenishment TF type, and is in range, they will replenish combat losses in the CV/CVL air wings one, two, three planes at a time. So far as I know Japan does not have this capability.

One last question regarding this statement. You mentioned the pilots were generally pretty bad when assigned to the replenishment squadrons. When they transfer over to replace losses on a CV or CVL, will the reserve pilots on the carrier which may be better experienced take over, or does the pilot from the replenishment squadron now become a member of the carrier air wing? I'd have to go in and manually set him to squadron reserve to keep him out of ops?

If I recall, it looked like Historiker had already replaced the replenishment squadrons with more experienced pilots. I might be good on this point if so.

If a squadron is short of its full complement of active pilots, the VR squadron will send pilots with the replacement planes, which is why I always try to keep the combat squadrons maxed out with reserve pilots. I also include one or two CVEs with a normal aircraft complement in a replenishment TF, flying CAP for the TF.

As noted above, you can draw replacements from VR squadrons wherever they are based: CVE, CVL, CV, or land base. Historically, some 10-20 CVEs were constantly serving in a replacement/ferry capacity, following TF 38/58 and shuttling replacement aircraft from the West Coast. As Bill Olson noted a few years ago, there were actually no such thing as VR units - they were created in the game as a method of replicating the active replacement role played by the CVEs. With AOs, AEs, and CVEs following them, your fast carrier task forces can remain at sea for incredible periods of time in 1945, until they need to repair the inevitable damage.

[SqzMyLemon]

Nov. 10/43:

The Allies continue to decline accepting battle in the air over Burma or New Guinea.

Japanese bombers turn their attention to Lae. Heavy enemy fighter sweeps followed by the bombers target 30th Australian Bde.

A Japanese counterattack at Kirakira fails to wipe out the token Allied forces present. These are fragments and I've resigned myself to their loss. I will conduct a proper amphibious assault soon enough. I learned a valuable lesson form this little setback and my future offensive plans will be the better for it.

Allied intentions remain passive until I am ready to move. There are 131 ships repairing at Pearl Harbor. As ships complete repairs, they are then fueled and assigned new Captains if warranted. Christmas Island is backed up with shipping waiting to unload, the base's port is currently only level 2. I've begun sending troops and supply directly to Pago Pago and Fiji. I've decided to use Suva as another staging area for operations against New Guinea and the Solomons. I'm not comfortable with Luganville being my only base with any sort of logisitics. It's too close to the Japanese positions and vulnerable as there are no supporting bases built up. It's ripe for a Japanese naval raid.

I am loving the logistic side of the Allies. I have to, as there isn't much else I can do right now. [:D] What a difference from playing Japan when you have to scrimp and save. Here, I just load up and go knowing I'll never run out.

[dave sindel]

Sqz - are you affected at all by the wildfires in Alberta ?

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

I am loving the logistic side of the Allies. ... I just load up and go knowing I'll never run out.

It really does simplify the game, doesn't it?

[:D][:D][:D]

[SqzMyLemon]

ORIGINAL: dave sindel

Sqz - are you affected at all by the wildfires in Alberta ?

No, I'm in Edmonton which is more central and not affected. It's a big deal here obviously, not only for the residents, but the Province as a whole economy wise. With the price of oil in the tank, this hits even harder. Cities and communities all over the Province are taking in people. I think even West Edmonton Mall here is providing temporary shelter. Last I heard over a 1000 buildings have been lost, and that was days ago so could be even worse now.

[SqzMyLemon]

I happened to catch this comment by Erik in Mr. Kane's AAR regarding China.

ORIGINAL: obvert

I have a similar no strat bombing into China HR in my current game, and again that was asked for by the first opponent in that game. I see how it can help the Allies a bit earlier, but once the Japanese take it all, it's a good supplement to the economy assuming the industry survives through the conquest.

I rechecked an e-mail Erik had sent regarding the HR's that he and Historiker had previously agreed to, and there it is, no strategic bombing in China the entire war. [X(]

Considering this particular HR, I have to question why Historker committed so heavily to a ground campaign in Burma. Other than knocking out Magwe's and Rangoon's fuel/oil facilities from India, there is no reason to fight a land campaign in Burma in light of this HR, in my opinion. Unfortunately, Allied forces are so heavily committed that I can't walk away from this one. It would take 4-6 months to withdraw and set up another campaign somewhere else, time that I don't have.

I do have something in mind and my planned offensive down the Irrawaddy Valley takes on a new importance now.

My logistic preparations are progressing nicely. The majority of the fleet at Pearl Harbor has been refueled and only 87 ships are still repairing.

I've learned to dislike how my ground forces have been committed in New Guinea and how vulnerable the entire position is to a Japanese counterattack. There are no reserves handy and I can't safely redeploy combat LCU's from Rossel Island and Milne Bay. Frankly, I think the Allied position is quite bad and it's going to take a major effort to get this campaign back on track.

This is the last time I will mention my predecessors handiwork. From here on out I just have to deal with it, but I need to hurry, because there are potential disasters pending if Erik counterattacks aggressively.

[SqzMyLemon]

I've ordered my first large bomber raid this turn. Six squadrons of B-17 and B-24 bombers escorted by P-40N's are to hit Tsuyung's airbase. I'm sweeping with two squadrons of P-47's. I hope to catch Japanese bombers on the ground, but have a feeling they'll be absent flying a mission against Paoshan. If nothing else, I want to keep Erik honest by having to defend his airbases.

[SqzMyLemon]

I've started to send some naval reinforcements from Pearl Harbor to Fiji. Three CVL's and four CVE's have started the journey to Suva. I plan on using these ships to provide support for operations in the Solomons.

I've started a number of CV upgrades at Pearl Harbor that will take 14-17 days to complete. I figure now is the time to perform these upgrades. Fuel at Pearl Harbor currently sits at 56k with more unloading and additional tanker TF's set to arrive over the next week. How bad was the fuel situation for the fleet at Pearl? I've consumed 160k fuel in less than a week replenishing bunkers, and there are still a number of ships that are awaiting their chance to refuel. Once the tankers start arriving at Pearl on a regular basis, I'll set up taskforces to get fuel to Fiji. From Fiji, fuel will be distributed to Australia and forward bases.

It's truly impressive how Allied bases can be expanded so quickly, and all my idle construction units are going to be put to good use.

Complaints from Karachi are starting to roll in as more and more Chinese units arrive. Despite 60k supply, there's a yellow exclamation warning already. I've created some additional taskforces to provide continual re-supply runs from Aden and Cape Town. Fuel isn't an issue in India, so Cape Town will continue to send fuel directly to Australia. Small, short legged, transports make the fuel run from Abadan to Karachi.

I've sent a large supply taskforce from Sydney to Wellington to top up New Zealand. I've redeployed almost all the un-restricted NZ LCU's to Noumea and Luganville, so the lack of supply in NZ should be a thing of the past.

I am on track to end 1943 with a restored logistic base and redeploy enough air, land and naval units to allow for offensives in January.