4 player E-mail: AAR

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14

1. Too many units facing the Italians! You only need three (one of those three could even be a RES that need not be re-orged in Lyons.
I disagree for the reasons mentioned above The next time you play the Allies, try it. You might be surprised.
2. Arty in Maginot hex???
Well the French aren't endowed with tons of spare units. I did not want to give up the Maginot Line as a freebie and needed something in there!See above. Too many units vs the Italians causes these sorts of problems. The 4-1 GAR should be there.
3. Most importantly, you need to have the 4 mover INF's, the 5 mover MOT, and INF div in Lille and SE of Lille getting ready to move into Brussels.
The wisdom of this I can agree with.

Gort: as I recall, that whole scenario was a huge blunder by the Allies.
There was a blunder in having the Polish in the North Sea - however since none of us knew it was a blunder I think the Allies can be given a break on that one.The blunder with the Polish was in not getting the surprise...notice I didn't even mention that (I was giving the Allies a break on that one).
The Allies should have waited with Gort, et al. Hunt down the German CA (w/INF div). Once that is accomplished or the Germans have already invaded with the div....THEN send Gort, et al with lots of protection (sea and air).
That I think is just talking with hindsight and is totally impractical. Remember the Allies a) wanted to stop the invasion of Rotterdam and b) do not know what type of impulse they may be forced into next (they do not have the initiative at this stage of the war and against a decent player their moves are reactionary). Getting the British (including the army) into the North Sea on the first Allied impulse is standard stuff. There was nothing wrong with that - the dice throws of 1 (Axis) and 10 (Allied) was. You say they should have waited but after the invasion of Rotterdam who says the Germans would have taken their aircraft out of the sea area? If the British had sailed with Gort in impulse two you still must assume Gort lands that impulse (not necessarily possible depending on Poland or if it is still unclear whether a landing in Belgium or France is needed) - or he can be attacked anyway. If the Germans can sail a CA and later a BC, alone into the North Sea and not lose them while the British get two TRS taken out - then frankly there is nothing that the Allies can do about that whatever tactics they employ.I'm saying the Germans would not have taken their air out, but Gort, et al can also go into a lower box with fighter protection besides the fleet protection. It was the Allies that won the initial die roll. The Allies were hungry to get at the German units poised for invasion. If I had taken over the Allied decision making at that point I would have declined combat, and that is not at all 20/20 hindsight. Landing Gort (plus) safely is far more important than stopping an invasion. If I sail an HQ into a sea area, they are landing THAT impulse. If the Allies had fighter protection, plus maybe a bomber as well this might have played out differently. I have no problem with the Allies trying to stop the invasion...but don't do both...wait on Gort...too much combat potential. Too much movement and concern in Poland...stack Lodz and Warsaw and just let it be. Get your pilots and what ever else...don't let Poland take away from the main focal point. I normally have Gort and Wavell in France and max out the commitment.

The set up of Belgium was not optimal either. As the impulses went on, the Allies didn't do much to mitigate the luck of weather and long turn.
I can understand the first part of this comment. The second part is just meaningless without some examples. The point has been made re the French set up and a couple of subsequent decisions that could have been done differently. But as for not then doing much to mitigate for the long turn and the weather as the game went on - I would be interested to hear exactly what you believe the Allies could have done next. Examples: CW should have moved out of Antwerp and westward as the French line was retreating. CW would have held the northern two hexes of the Allied line. The Maginot east of Metz should have been abandoned sooner with two units in Metz. I don't like flipping both HQ's for re-orging French units...the re-orging HQ could be put into a hex adjacent to the Belgian border prior to help stop the Germans from exploiting through the line after attack. I would rather have had the obvious hex to be attacked with one unit in it and another unit behind to block exploitation. It didn't seem to me that the French were getting units up north where they were needed quickly enough (starting off with more mass north rather than south would alleviate that problem). How many French units outside of France made it into France?

warspite1

Responses in red. Responses in blue. I know what ever I write here will be looked at as 20/20 hindsight, but I'm just going with the concepts and playing style my board game group goes with, and one of our group is on the development group.

Not whatever you write - I accept the better defence of Belgium through a revised French set up (through better placement but not denuding the Alps of defence and allowing the Italians a freebie walk-in). However, I think the majority of what you say is with the benefit of hindsight - but that's fine. If this was a dull game with limited replayability we wouldn't be having these debates.

The hindsight is particularly marked with regard to the weather. Playing the % each impulse we were not unreasonably expecting a change of luck. That thinking does affect troop dispositions and its only human. They say in WIF if you can't afford the worst result don't attack. But that is fine in theory and impossible in practice - well ditto playing every impulse as though the turn will never end and next one is going to be Fine (and the opposite if the attacker). Vacating Antwerp is great (even at a cost of other moves) if we know what is happening turnwise. But then moving them out of the city and vulnerable to a blitz attack with no retreat (Gort had not landed in France) would have been criticised sharply.

The idea that the CW should allow a free invasion of Rotterdam is imo nonsense - and again would be roundly criticised if the Germans then benefited from that freebie.

And I don't know how you KNOW the Germans would not have flown into the North Sea - maybe that was something you discussed on the Axis thread? If so then that is surprising considering the German fighter flew to the North Sea on the first impulse. The Germans had units to defend as well as CW to attack.

You also mention how many units outside France made it to Metropolitan France. Well as you know if playing with oil then this strategy is close to a must if only because of the problem with a lack of oil. There were only two turns anyway, but how many units did you think the French could repatriate with such limited oil stocks?

We will clearly have to agree to disagree on much of this - particularly the Italian set up and in trying to make the Germans pay in Poland to partially offset what was happening in France. Of course we lost out on both because even once the weather changed (AFTER the damage was done) the Axis luck on land throws - which had been as rubbish as the Allies - changed for the better.

[Mayhemizer_slith]

Units destroyed in N/D 1939

[AllenK]

Edit: Thank you to all those who are showing a keen interest in this AAR by contributing their ideas on how they might have done things differently. I hope we can look forward to some more AAR's on the forum where these ideas are put to the test against other players and the vagaries of luck. The more active the forum, the better for the long-term health of the game.

[Jagdtiger14]

Ok, you wont believe there is no hindsight about this on my part. Then I highly recommend you test (as you did with Fall Gelb) various set ups...Brian and Pesk offered some ideas as well.

You are playing with defensive shore bombardment, right? If so, the Germans would not have attacked the British stack at um, well, Dunkirk[X(] See Page 22 post 632 (pre move positions), and Page 23 post 663 (post move positions)...the amount of effort expended on that stack would have been tremendous (air to air combats, low odds, etc...)...for a hex that does not get them closer to Paris. What it does for France, is it makes them available for when Gort does get there and they can move around into defensive positions near Paris. Instead, those assets are trapped in Antwerp doing no good.

Just to clear some things/misperceptions up:

1. The only reason I suggested allowing a free invasion of Rotterdam is because you had Gort out there. I would not have had Gort out there if I was hunting the invasion force (And yes, I would have hunted the invasion force). Then later (after either the invasion happened, or the invasion force is sunk) move Gort+ out there with fighter air cover (1 box? if no fighter 4+ range).

2. Concerning German air in the North Sea: Just the opposite what you wrote...I would have assumed that the Germans WOULD have flown out there, and that they ARE there...I'm not sure why you write I would think they would not? Maybe this is a miscommunication.

3. Top priority naval with the French is to get as many units into France proper...if that means they cant make some other naval moves because of oil, oh well.

I think we can agree on something?:

French front line vs Germany is top priority over everything else. All moves and assets (CW and French) prioritized here even at the expense of Poland, colonies, etc... and naval moves (opportunities) other than TRS bringing units into France.


When you have time and desire, I highly recommend you wargame alternative French set ups and following moves...S/O'39 to J/A'40. You can use the known disaster of weather and turn ends as happened in this AAR, or random for the lack of knowledge of what happens next. I think you might be surprised.

[Klydon]

I have been following this AAR with a lot of interest. The concept of doing an AAR with two teams of two people each is terrific and I again applaud the participants for allowing us to watch their game as it progresses.

Sometimes the written word can suck for meaning or intent and especially among a community that features a large number of people where English is not the first language learned. My intent is not to offend anyone with what I am about to post.

First, I would remind people that all players are not by any means experts at this game. What seems obvious to a seasoned and experienced player may not be so to someone who may be a good player but perhaps has not seen a certain strategy, etc. (As an aside, my Allied invasion to knock out Italy in 1939 was a complete success the first time I tried it against opponents in 3rd Reich. We quickly ended that game and started another. For some reason I was never able to set up for the 1939 knock out again for some reason [:D] ).

Next, I think we all have a tendency to look at things with hindsight and of course assume our alternative plan would have succeeded. (Otherwise why do the alternative plan?). It is easy to come in after the fact and point out all the mistakes, but perhaps they would not have been mistakes if the dice had gone differently. I think most understand that some element of luck is needed to do well in WiF and if you don't have it, it really doesn't matter what your plans are. They all can be undone by turn length and the type of weather, regardless of the time of year.

I think that it is safe to say that the Axis have had the better of it in terms of imposing their strategy over what the Allies may have planned to start the war out with. Of course the Axis do start with a strategic advantage and were able to exploit that rather well in part due to the combination of good weather and long turns.

At any rate, keep up the good work guys. Very enjoyable to come here and watch how this game is unfolding. I am learning quite a bit.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14

Ok, you wont believe there is no hindsight about this on my part. Then I highly recommend you test (as you did with Fall Gelb) various set ups...Brian and Pesk offered some ideas as well.

You are playing with defensive shore bombardment, right? If so, the Germans would not have attacked the British stack at um, well, Dunkirk[X(] See Page 22 post 632 (pre move positions), and Page 23 post 663 (post move positions)...the amount of effort expended on that stack would have been tremendous (air to air combats, low odds, etc...)...for a hex that does not get them closer to Paris. What it does for France, is it makes them available for when Gort does get there and they can move around into defensive positions near Paris. Instead, those assets are trapped in Antwerp doing no good.

Just to clear some things/misperceptions up:

1. The only reason I suggested allowing a free invasion of Rotterdam is because you had Gort out there. I would not have had Gort out there if I was hunting the invasion force (And yes, I would have hunted the invasion force). Then later (after either the invasion happened, or the invasion force is sunk) move Gort+ out there with fighter air cover (1 box? if no fighter 4+ range).

2. Concerning German air in the North Sea: Just the opposite what you wrote...I would have assumed that the Germans WOULD have flown out there, and that they ARE there...I'm not sure why you write I would think they would not? Maybe this is a miscommunication.

3. Top priority naval with the French is to get as many units into France proper...if that means they cant make some other naval moves because of oil, oh well.

I think we can agree on something?:

French front line vs Germany is top priority over everything else. All moves and assets (CW and French) prioritized here even at the expense of Poland, colonies, etc... and naval moves (opportunities) other than TRS bringing units into France.


When you have time and desire, I highly recommend you wargame alternative French set ups and following moves...S/O'39 to J/A'40. You can use the known disaster of weather and turn ends as happened in this AAR, or random for the lack of knowledge of what happens next. I think you might be surprised.

warspite1

And once again you are too quick with the "they would have" or "they wouldn't have" like they are KNOWN factors.

E.g you mention the Dunkirk hex. You obviously do not recall the CW units being out of supply at one point? A few well placed ground strikes on these black print units and shore bombardment means jack.

Re the air - yes maybe its a miscommunication but in post 797 you state "the Germans would not have taken their air out".

Again the naval plan with France is not certain. Effectively what you mean is (in order to be able to reorganise the HQ's and aircraft as well), the French must only use part of their fleet in impulse 1, saving the rest for impulse 2 to ensure the TRS gets to transport in both turns. That's all well and good - but again far from certain as using a lesser number of ships means more chance of the Italians destroying said TRS. If I lost the TRS first impulse, again the criticism would be, why did you not protect it properly?!

But time to end this from my side. You think the Allies:

- mucked up set-up in Northern France and later Belgium
- mucked up the set-up in the Alps
- used the wrong naval units in the Baltic
- mucked up naval and air movements in the North Sea
- mucked up land movements by the French and CW subsequently, defended the wrong hexes etc
- mucked up French naval movements in the Mediterranean

Okay.

I play the game to have fun - even when getting my bottom handed to me (which is a regular occurence). I also feel uncomfortable that debates like these come more and more down to highlighting "the vagaries of the dice" which kick the fun out of the winning - and frankly Mayhemizer and AllenK have done a good job to be where they are. As I said before, even if given good luck with dice, a bad player can still contrive to muck it up - and the guys have not done that.

[Barbuesque]

I'm enjoying this AAR immensely! Thanks for taking the time to write it up.

[Orm]

Nov/Dec 1939

Germany decides to install the Vichy government. Most of the French Colonies join the Vichy side.

[Orm]

A few of the colonies, however, decides to fight on. They establish themselves in Libreville.

[Orm]

The newly created Vichy France seem to have a fairly strong army. And navy...

[Orm]

Nov/Dec 1939

Production:
China (5):
INF
GARR

CW (13):
INF
FTR2
2 x Pilot
TRS (1st)
CP
CVP0
CVP1

USA(11):
GARR
BB (1st)
TRS (1st)
NAV3
Pilot

USSR (10):
GARR
2 x INF
Pilot

[Orm]

Jan/Feb '40

Reinforcements: Barely worth mentioning.

Germany:
2 x MIL

Japan:
2 x MIL

CW:
The Queens
NAV2

USSR:
2 x INF
GARR

Germany removes one LND3, USA one CVP1, and USSR one FTR2.

[Orm]

While Germany installed a Vichy government the Italians conquered British Somaliland.

[Jagdtiger14]

And once again you are too quick with the "they would have" or "they wouldn't have" like they are KNOWN factors. E.g you mention the Dunkirk hex. You obviously do not recall the CW units being out of supply at one point? A few well placed ground strikes on these black print units and shore bombardment means jack. Re the air - yes maybe its a miscommunication but in post 797 you state "the Germans would not have taken their air out".

Wow Warspite, I'm only trying to give you some pointers in this post-France debrief we were having. Things for you to consider the next time you play the Allies. In no way am I perfect and I'm sure there are veterans at this game who might disagree with me on some of my points. Please take all this in the spirit I've meant it, which is constructive.

Well, about KNOWN factors, you are right...anything could happen. I try to predict what my opponent will/might do (usually worst case), and then try to stay a move ahead if possible. Those units in Antwerp were out of supply at some point(s?)...but I was looking at the first Allied impulse of N/D'39 I believe. If they were OOS at that time, then I stand corrected.

It looks like post 797 was a miscommunication. I read what you said as the German air leaving the North Sea (aborting), and I wrote back that they "the Germans would have not taken their air out" (...of the North Sea. In other words not aborting out of the sea area and remaining there)...sorry probably my fault in not reading you correctly and then not communicating clearly.
You wrote: "...who says the Germans would have taken their aircraft out of the sea area?"
I responded: "I'm saying the Germans would not have taken their air out..."

[Orm]

Jan/Feb '40

Both sides rolled a 4 on the initiative roll, but since Axis had a positive modifier (+1), they win the initiative.

Now the world holds its breath while we wait and see if they will use the initiative to go first this turn.

[Jagdtiger14]

Is there any way to show us the entire Vichy fleet?

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14

Is there any way to show us the entire Vichy fleet?

Here it is.

[Jagdtiger14]

Thank you Orm!

[AllenK]

ORIGINAL: Orm

Jan/Feb '40

Both sides rolled a 4 on the initiative roll, but since Axis had a positive modifier (+1), they win the initiative.

Now the world holds its breath while we wait and see if they will use the initiative to go first this turn.

Following a tripartite pact conference, the Axis powers graciously invite their Allied counter-parts to open the batting for this turn.

[Orm]

Following a tripartite pact conference, the Axis powers graciously invite their Allied counter-parts to open the batting for this turn.

Thank you. Very generous. [:)]

And in response of that kindness I rolled a one for the new weather.

I really, really should not roll the weather. [:D]


Picture from Jan/Feb '40 Impulse #1 (Allied) - Weather