Sending ships to Pearl Harbor/Japan

[estaban]

In your normal scenario, with 100% commitment, is this worth doing? I am way into a scenario as Japan, and several capital ships that I have sent back to Japan early in the game on the theory that would get them back are still in Japan, long after they have been repaired.

And I don't seem to be getting any "commitment bonus" for sending these ships back either. It is nearing mid-May 1943, and I have only been sent 3 groups of ships since the big Japanese surge in Spring/Summer of 1942.

At the same time, in this current game, I know that way back last summer I damaged the Saratoga kind of moderately (I would guess about 40-50 system damage), and I expect that she got sent back to Pearl. It is nearly a year later and the Saratoga has not returned.

Is it basically a mistake to send ships back to Japan in a 100% commitment game? Should I just keep the ships packed away at Truk, and hope for the best in terms of port repairs?

What about those players who have extensive experience in playing the allies? In a 100% commitment game, do you feel it is a good idea to send ships back to Pearl Harbor? I know that in the case of the allies, you get significant AA upgrades if you get ships back from their refit, but besides that, is it a good "investment"?

[Oleg Mastruko]

Jeez, I want to play you in PBEM

Of course it's worth doing. As Allies it's worth doing just for AA upgrades alone. There's excellent thread re allied AA upgrades in the War Room board - check it out.

As IJN it is worth doing too. You will most probably get the new ship of the same (or nearly same) capabilities, and repair your damaged ship quicker, and in danger-less manner.

Of course, it all depends on tactical situation, but generally speaking - it is VERY worth doing.

O.

[estaban]

Oleg:

Thanks for the response.

Playing the Japanese side, I have not shared your experience with getting similar quality replacements, or any replacements at all, for the ships I have sent back. I sent back two battleships, including the Yamato, and two CVs, plus some assorted destroyers and merchant ships. These all got shot up when I took Port Moresby in June/July of 1942.

I didn't receive any of them back. Additionally, I received no new ship reinforcements from July or so of 1942 until early 1943, when I received about a half dozen destroyers, an escort carrier, a half dozen merchant ships and a couple auxilaries. Right now, the Musahi, Haruna and their escort are heading to Truk. It's tough for me to connect getting any of these reinforcements with ships that I sent back to Japan 10 months ago. It was nearly 6-7 months between when I sent the damaged ships back, and the first new ones started arriving.

[Mike_B20]

Edit: This post was apparently 100% wrong and has been deleted as unfit for intellectual consumption.

Move along folks, nothing to see here.

[estaban]

Thanks Mike!

Does anyone else know if this is true? If so, then that is a good reason to send ships out of theater, so you lower your numbers versus your opponent and trigger reinforcements.

[estaban]

Although if what Mike says is true, it is kind of scary.

In the game I mentioned, so far I have sunk 247 allied ships (about 35-40 of these are PT boats, 20-25 are SCs and 5 are LCIs) for the loss of 89 of my own. Unfortunately, those 89 include pretty much all of my carriers, and the Americans have about 10 CVs, CVLs and CVEs right now.


So if the Americans are still pretty much proportional to what I have after all that--Yikes!!

[Oleg Mastruko]

That is most certainly true. Although you may not always get what you hope for. If you send Yamato for repairs you may get (much weaker) Ise or Hiei instead. But then again, if Yamato is damaged enough to warrant sending home (like, 20+ Sys damage) then it'll mean months and months of in-theatre repairs (in Truk, so anyway - away from the fight)

BTW if you're not happy with, say, Hiei, keep sending it back until you get the BB you like That's unhistorical and over-sensitive way to lead a campaign, but maybe Tokyo will get a message after a year or two

BTW2 - when you send damaged ship back you may see how long the repairs will take (Ships available screen) and when she will be available (In Japan) to be sent to you (provided "ship commitment" gives you rights to get such a ship).

O.

[estaban]

Thanks guys!

I had been holding a few very badly damaged ships at Truk because I did not think I would get anything if I sent them back. So I will give it a try.

I think Truk is going to get bombed pretty soon anyway, my air force is defitely cracking now. Down to about 30 Betties and Nells.

[pasternakski]

Oleg, my friend, as often as I have agreed with your words of wisdom in the past, I can't do so here.

The Japanese, when playing scenario 17 at 100%-100% commitment, have to minimize their return of ships to Tokyo, or they wind up with nothing worthwhile to fight back with in 1943. Not only does the game evaluate relative numbers between the two sides in deciding whether to release ships to the theater, the Japanese chances of receiving ships diminish as time passes after, as esteban puts it, the "big Japanese surge of summer 1942."

You have to keep Truk safe from raids, and retain all of your important ships to repair (slowly) in-theater, otherwise, never get most of them back (stopping Allied carrier raids while you have dozens of capital ships in harbor is an obvious need). Carriers and worthwhile battleships in particular will wind up wasting away in Tokyo Bay with their crews takin' spinza on the Ginza, as the game seems to "know" what you want most and refuses to send it back to you.

Remember that the number of ships in harbor does not slow down their rate of repair. One CV in Truk will repair just as fast as 10 CVs and five BBs in Truk.

[Mr.Frag]

Tough call, it is very dependant on your losses coupled with losses on the other side and what type of ship it is balanced against the date.

Once the date rolls into 43, the odds on getting anything back are rather long and continue to get worse. It is a safe bet as japan that all ships you have by the end of december are all you'll ever have.

This is why you have to make your stand in july/aug/sept 42 time frames, so ships can be sent back while you still have a chance to get some back.

This is not to say you will never get ships, but large capital ships being released are rather rare to see.

[Oleg Mastruko]

Originally posted by pasternakski
Oleg, my friend, as often as I have agreed with your words of wisdom in the past, I can't do so here.

The Japanese, when playing scenario 17 at 100%-100% commitment, have to minimize their return of ships to Tokyo, or they wind up with nothing worthwhile to fight back with in 1943.

You may be right in that. I am of the opinion that #17 with 100:100% is just game-ized Sepukku in hexes for IJN player anyway (unless played against AI).

In my games I am very generous towards IJN players (be it me or my opponent), assuming at least 140% and #19 are needed for some semblance of "level play".

Instinctively I do send less capital ships back as IJN, but that's because CA with 25 Sys damage may be of use if you defend your base(s), and I expect USN attacks of some sort to start any time in or after July 42. As USN, I keep 25-Sys CA-a only till the flood of reinforcements starts (cca July-Aug 42) under same premises.

Post July 42 as USN I usually send back everything with 15-25+ Sys damage (it's worth for the AA uprades alone), and everything with 30-40+ Sys damage as IJN (depending on the tactical circumstances).

O.

[pasternakski]

Originally posted by Oleg Mastruko
You may be right in that. I am of the opinion that #17 with 100:100% is just game-ized Sepukku in hexes for IJN player anyway (unless played against AI).

In my games I am very generous towards IJN players (be it me or my opponent), assuming at least 140% and #19 are needed for some semblance of "level play".

Instinctively I do send less capital ships back as IJN, but that's because CA with 25 Sys damage may be of use if you defend your base(s), and I expect USN attacks of some sort to start any time in or after July 42. As USN, I keep 25-Sys CA-a only till the flood of reinforcements starts (cca July-Aug 42) under same premises.

Post July 42 as USN I usually send back everything with 15-25+ Sys damage (it's worth for the AA uprades alone), and everything with 30-40+ Sys damage as IJN (depending on the tactical circumstances).

O.

Perfectly sensible comments. How did you ever get to be so perfectly sensible, Oleg?

Even at 140% or so commitment as Japanese in sc 17, I am hesitant about sending back carriers at 30-40 system damage. I just hate seeing them sit there in Tokyo while I'm getting my lunch handed to me in April or May '43 when even a carrier or two, even with 20% or so damage, could make a big difference.

[estaban]

Too late!!

I sent back the following ships (that I can recall). They all had 30-80 system damage. The American carrier horde seems to be bearing down on Truk right now. I tried to stop him by throwing everything I had at him at Shortlands, but even with 100+ fighters flying escort, 250 Wildcats and Corsairs is impossible to get anything through.

On the plus side I did get the Americans to bomb the port at Shortlands (my former forward fleet base) so he could sink one barge He lost 17 Dauntlesses to AA. I am a little miffed he didn't lose more. I have 10 flak units or so there.

Anyway, I shipped the following back to Japan:

Soryu
Kaga (Not really damaged, but it's air wing is safer on land, and I don't want to risk giving up a bunch of cheap victory points)
Kirishima
Kongo
Nachi
Chokai
Kumano
Mogami
Myoko
Aoba
Kako

And 2-3 badly wounded light cruisers maybe 10 destroyers and a couple merchant ships

As I said, I did just get the Musahi and Haruna, and a screen for them.

Well, maybe I will get back something useful. If not, maybe the sudden plunge in Japanese commitment will FUBAR my opponents reinforcements for awhile, if what you guys say is true. He seems to be hurting for transports, even though I have only sunk about 50-60 AKs and APs. He captured Lunga about 2 and 1/2 game weeks ago, and he hasn't got a plane based their yet, and has only run in one convoy of AKs and a bunch or LCVPs since then.

I will try to hang on an make him slog his way up the heavily mined and undeveloped Solomons to my strongpoints at Buin and Shortlands, then another heavily mined stretch before Rabaul.

Sorry for the play-by-play, but I thought it added context to my decision.

[estaban]

One more related question:

If you get a big ship damaged early as Japan, and you send it back, do you get some kind of replacement? I sent back the ships I had damaged right at the end of the summer surge, and didn't get anything of course.

If they had been sent back earlier, would I have been more likely to receive something? What has been your guys experience?

[pasternakski]

I never count on receiving anything from Tokyo other than bad news. And the news gets worse and worse as the game wears on.

[Yamamoto]

Originally posted by Mike_B20
Reinforcements are determined by how the ratio of your ships to your opponents pans out and compares with the % commitment set for each player. At least that's how it seems in my experience.

My guess is your opponent has roughly the same as you in theatre (assuming 100% commitment each side) and that's why you aren't getting more ships

This is most definitely NOT true. One side’s reinforcements and chance of getting new ships has absolutely NOTHING to do with the current forces in theater on the other side. It is determined by only two things: the current amount of ship points you are entitled to based on the month and commitment levels, and the current amount of ship points YOU have in theater.
Since the amount of points the Japanese player is entitled to is always dropping after the Summer of 42 it is unlikely that you will get anything good, even if you send something back. At 100% commitment level you have an entitlement of 12000 points through the Summer of 42. By January of 43 that number has dropped to 7000. So, unless you lose 5000 points of ships (basically, you whole navy) you can expect to receive almost no new ships in 43.
As the Japanese, I try to never send a ship back if I think I will need it again. The only reason to send damaged ships back after the Summer of 42 is to deny them as victory points to your opponent.

Yamamoto

[Mike_B20]

Thanks for that Yamamato.
What you described is a better system.

I'd always felt I was pushing **** uphill with a bent pin if doing well as I thought my opponent was being reinforced to maintain some sort of parity in theatre.

[estaban]

Yamamoto's description makes more sense as a system to me. Having a system that compares your reinforcement levels to your opponents leaves room for all kinds of dodgy tactics, like intentionally sending home ships that are of minimal value (Like my carriers who would get sunk quite quickly in a fight, so I have transferred their air wings to land bases while the ships sit in Truk) so you can screw up your opponents reinforcement chances.

[mogami]

Hi, As the USN I send everything back the first time it arrives (for AAA upgrade)Keep on the look out for easy surface battles. Send everything and then send the survivors back to PH. As Japan I keep nothing above a damage level 10.
I only use size 3k transports between Truk and Rabaul/Shortlands
and when they get damage above 5 I send them back. Any ship I don't expect to use in the next month gets sent back.

Now before you have a cow. The point as Japan is to keep my on map total as low as possible. Any "valuable" ship I recieve I keep unless it gets damaged and there is another same type ship in Tokyo. There is no point in keeping damaged ships. I'm not going to use them to fight.

As both sides my "future" commitment level always stays at "high"

As Allies around May 43 it drops to Moderate.

I don't keep a lot of transports as Japan past the period I will be making offensive landings. Past that it's just the Truk Rabaul route
with barges and a few transports. The bulk of the movement is carried out by fast transports with these ships being sent back to Tokyo when they get over 10 damage.

The going is rough as the USN before 43. But after that you have a well armed and trained corps of ships.
As Japan, you need to defeat one allied landing. For this you need undamaged, well trained high experiance ships. You won't have them if you sit on ships.

[estaban]

Mogami:

Are you saying that you can keep your commitment level set to "high" by constantly sending back your ships in a 100% commitment game? As you described it above?