On The Fence

[David Hansen]

I have been following this game since its' release.

I've read most of the posts in this forum to date.

I'm very impressed and have thought about buying for a while.

I've not a true hardcore wargamer...WITE/WITW/WITP are not my cup of tea.

My personal favorites that are more than just a beer and pretzel approach were BIN and BII. Both met my needs without

being a click-fest or being buried to death in details.

I do however enjoy a micro-management approach to war gaming from the strategic perspective...not so much on the tactical side.

Saying all that...a couple of questions:

* about how many units are in play each turn to give orders to? (German...Russian)

* what are some of the things the game is still lacking or require "major" improvement?...ie. one limited campaign for the Russian front.

* is the user interface pretty friendly with all info readily available...or multiple clicks required to drill down for the info to handle basic game play?

* with the outstanding hard cover player's manual...how easy has it been to stay on top of all the changes since it was first

published? If I was to purchase...does the original manual come with a listing of the errata or changes since the game's

inception?...if not how would I go about finding the subsequent changes?

Any insights from experienced players would be appreciated.

[wodin]

David this is one of the best wargames ever released on the PC. Seriously stop worrying and go buy it. I'm certain you'll love it. It's game that has to be played to be fully appreciated, words don't do it justice. If a wargamer doesn't like this game then they really need to find a new game genre as wargames aren't for them. So David if you buy it and didn't like it stay away from wargames altogether:)

[SuluSea]

ORIGINAL: wodin

David this is one of the best wargames ever released on the PC.
Seriously stop worrying and go buy it. I'm certain you'll love it.
It's game that has to be played to be fully appreciated, words don't do it justice.
If a wargamer doesn't like this game then they really need to find a new game genre as wargames aren't for them.
So David if you buy it and didn't like it stay away from wargames altogether:)

I bought it and don't care for it so pump the brakes some. In full disclosure I count WITP as my
favorite game and WITE as number 2 so my opinion would differ from the OPs. It would also differ from yours in the sense that I love wargames and won't be buying another
game in the series.

My biggest complaints are what I feel as too many abstractions and not a fan of the political choices and IMO the art is very weak if the asking cost is premium when in comparison to other games sold by Matrix.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: David Hansen

I have been following this game since its' release.

I've read most of the posts in this forum to date.

I'm very impressed and have thought about buying for a while.

I've not a true hardcore wargamer...WITE/WITW/WITP are not my cup of tea.
I don't understand this comment - not liking those game systems doesn't mean you cannot be a hardcore or serious wargamer - different strokes and all that

My personal favorites that are more than just a beer and pretzel approach were BIN and BII. Both met my needs without being a click-fest or being buried to death in details.
No idea what those two acronyms stand for - but I guarantee this is NOT a click-fest - its anything but. There is absolutely no question that this game buries you in details

I do however enjoy a micro-management approach to war gaming from the strategic perspective...not so much on the tactical side.
Well its not a strategic game so.....

Saying all that...a couple of questions:

* about how many units are in play each turn to give orders to? (German...Russian)
I'd say about 150 German/Finish/Romanian/Hungarian/Slovakian/Spanish Divisions. Don't know about the Soviets but obviously many, many more - but of course they don't all stick around for very long so you are not necessarily managing a load of units more than the Germans at any one time.

* what are some of the things the game is still lacking or require "major" improvement?...ie. one limited campaign for the Russian front.
Absolutely nothing - they brought out a fun, sufficiently detailed, stable, user friendly, relatively bug-free game right out of the box.

* is the user interface pretty friendly with all info readily available...or multiple clicks required to drill down for the info to handle basic game play?
This is not an AEGOD game - the info is largely on screen and sometimes perhaps one or maybe two clicks further down. There is no hunting for info in miniscule font

* with the outstanding hard cover player's manual...how easy has it been to stay on top of all the changes since it was first
I haven't bothered - I am sure someone is keeping track

published? If I was to purchase...does the original manual come with a listing of the errata or changes since the game's
I've no idea

inception?...if not how would I go about finding the subsequent changes?
As said, I haven't bothered and it hasn't altered my gaming fun one bit

Any insights from experienced players would be appreciated.

Hope that helps. For the cost? This game is well, well worth it to me. Good luck with your decision

warspite1

Comments in Red

[Philippeatbay]

If you don't like the command layer or being able to play a game during your lifetime because it isn't a micromanagement fest, the game is not for you.

I have no idea how many units there are on a side because I have better things to do with my time than count them.

Here's a screenshot of the early game from the German side showing the front line from the Baltic to the Black Sea. I like to make moves an army group at a time, but even so you should be able to play a couple of turns a night fairly comfortably.

[Moltke71]

BiN - Battles in Normandy
BiL = Battles in Italy

Errata can be found in the readme.txt with each patch or here.

Fantastic, groundbreaking game.

[dox44]

this is not one of the greatest wargames of all time. a beer and pretzels game crawling on eggshells.

the cards and decisions will woo you at first and then it will collect dust...

this is definitely strategic and not a WI** type game so you might like it.

i wouldn't pay more than $29.00 for a one scenario game that you will probably spend 3 months playing
before you get past Sept 41 cause you hardly ever recover from mistakes or 'bad' die rolls...

start over...start over...start over...start over until you learn to dance on eggshells...don't break
a damn one either or its...you guessed it. June 41...like the "groundhog day of wargames"

if i could give you my game, i would...but i would feel bad...because i just ripped you off.

[wodin]

I'm not normally a fan of this scale preferring tactical yet I love this game. I love the idea of all the detail etc in WITE but don't enjoy playing games like that. I need immersion and this is where the game shines for me.

I see a lot more positive than negative opinions on the game. For the OP as he isn't keen on WITE then I think this will really suit him. I certainly wouldn't call it beer and pretzels, games like Panzer Corps to me are beer and pretzels. The again I think I'm going to have o re evaluate what I think wargamers would like and not like, Tigers on the Hunt was the first sign I may have things wrong.

[king171717]

I love this game. It was design so well! I am really enjoying it. One thing I had to overcome is the inability to min/max things like a person can do in most wargames. Its a very unique game. Of course people get scared away from the price. Video games are one of the cheapest form of entertainment. Well worth the money I spent on this game.

[budd]

If you played BIN and BII dont think you'll have a problem with the number of counters. The biggest concerns about the game ive read are the abstractions and the single scenario complaints. The abstractions are fine with me as it helps keep the number of counters down and the cards are a good way of having input into the abstracted parts of the game i.e. planes and arty and makes you make tough choices. If your a "what if" wargamer there's more replayability then you would expect from a single scenario game. The free setup option leaves room for a lot of different plans. The game just has personality and i think Cameron got what he was shooting for, its a new approach and i cant wait to see where they take it next. Yea i'd like it to be longer but what is there is great fun[hope they extend the time line in an addon...hint....hint[;)]] I think we as wargamers sometimes focus on what is not there i.e. not many scenarios, no airforce counters, ect. ect. all i can say is what is there is great fun for me but as always YMMV. You mentioned you read all the posts i'd suggest watching some youtube videos of gameplay to help making an informed choice. If your really that worried about it buy it on steam and play a little and get a refund if its not for you in the timeframe for refunds. If your going all in i'd suggest buying from here as you get a DRM free version and a steam key. As always Vic's support is second to none.

[76mm]

ORIGINAL: wodin
If a wargamer doesn't like this game then they really need to find a new game genre as wargames aren't for them.

I'm going to have to disagree with Wodin on this one; I'm an avid wargamer, have been for 30 years and probably will be for another 30, but this game was a huge turn off for me, for a variety of reasons, including but not limited to all of the tedious, opaque decisions you have to make in the game (at least if you're German, they didn't bother for the Sovs).

[gwgardner]

ORIGINAL: 76mm

ORIGINAL: wodin
If a wargamer doesn't like this game then they really need to find a new game genre as wargames aren't for them.

I'm going to have to disagree with Wodin on this one; I'm an avid wargamer, have been for 30 years and probably will be for another 30, but this game was a huge turn off for me, for a variety of reasons, including but not limited to all of the tedious, opaque decisions you have to make in the game (at least if you're German, they didn't bother for the Sovs).

Not gainsaying your opinion, just wanted to point out that there is a game option to play without the command/card/decision layer.

[zakblood]

it didn't win the Overall Digital Game of the Year and Digital Wargame of the Year! for nothing, great game tbh, and yes, play with cards / decision on or off to suit[;)]

tm.asp?m=4035385

[budd]

I play with just the military decisions on not the political ones, that seems to be my sweet spot.If you dont enjoy the decisions or the card system and the abstractions are too much for you then your taking away the elements that make it special and you might as well buy and play something else. I've bought many a game i thought i would enjoy and didnt for what ever reason. different strokes for different folks i'd say.

[bairdlander2]

My regret with this game is I have not been able to stop playing it[:)]