M Ali and the Army Question - thoughts

[demyansk]

I have a question about his refusal to go into the Army.

I haven't heard this discussion yet and it's hypothetical.

If he went into the Army, would he have received a "Plum" assignment like boxing tours? I really can't see them sending him to Vietnam into an 11B unit and fighting the North Vietnamese and the possibility of getting captured.

I wonder if they did any under the table negotiating to get him waived instead of going the route that happened?

I am just curious and even though a lot of soldiers went into the army in ww2,some played baseball the entire time while others like Ted Williams flew fighter planes in both wars.

I just can't see them sending him to a front line unit. By the way, any of the other boxers drafted like Joe Frazier, Norton etc?

[Jagdtiger14]

Cassius Marcellus Clay, Jr. (his "slave" name according to him). People want to remember him for positive reasons (his fighting, his late life philanthropy), and that's all fine and good. However, he did have a negative past (more than evading the draft), but I guess its best to leave it all alone and focus on the positives.

An interesting question is: who would have won if they had boxed each other in their prime? Clay/Ali or Mike Tyson? I think Tyson would have destroyed him.

[aaatoysandmore]

I agree Tyson would have destroyed him by biting off both ears. [:D]

[TulliusDetritus]

ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14

Cassius Marcellus Clay, Jr. (his "slave" name according to him). People want to remember him for positive reasons (his fighting, his late life philanthropy), and that's all fine and good. However, he did have a negative past (more than evading the draft), but I guess its best to leave it all alone and focus on the positives.

An interesting question is: who would have won if they had boxed each other in their prime? Clay/Ali or Mike Tyson? I think Tyson would have destroyed him.

I never liked boxing (and will never like it) but for some reason I watched the Tyson vs Douglas fight live on tv in 1990 (the first and last combat I ever saw). Somehow the vict... er Douglas managed to survive the initial ferocious assaults and... oh! He won in the end.

Don’t count your chickens before they hatch.

[Jagdtiger14]

I never liked boxing (and will never like it) but for some reason I watched the Tyson vs Douglas fight live on tv in 1990 (the first and last combat I ever saw). Somehow the vict... er Douglas managed to survive the initial ferocious assaults and... oh! He won in the end. Don’t count your chickens before they hatch.

I agree. I really dislike boxing. Maybe only Olympic boxing for national pride/gold medal count reasons.

And yes, don't count your chickens before they hatch, but Clay/Ali was not perfect in his career either.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: demjansk

I have a question about his refusal to go into the Army.

I haven't heard this discussion yet and it's hypothetical.

If he went into the Army, would he have received a "Plum" assignment like boxing tours? I really can't see them sending him to Vietnam into an 11B unit and fighting the North Vietnamese and the possibility of getting captured.

I wonder if they did any under the table negotiating to get him waived instead of going the route that happened?

I am just curious and even though a lot of soldiers went into the army in ww2,some played baseball the entire time while others like Ted Williams flew fighter planes in both wars.

I just can't see them sending him to a front line unit. By the way, any of the other boxers drafted like Joe Frazier, Norton etc?

warspite1

From what I have read (could be wrong) they tried to persuade him to change his mind with "plum" assignments, but he refused.

Bottom line, and the only thing I have to say on the subject, is this. I can well understand - indeed completely understand - those in the 1960's that were upset by Ali's decision. There were generations alive that had been through WWI and WWII, through Korea, and now there was this fit young man deciding he wouldn't fight for his country.

BUT

Knowing what we know, and with the world (At least trying) to move forward for the better, I have no idea how anyone can still be upset and not understand what he was at least trying to do. Here is a man that came back from winning gold at the Rome Olympics only to be called the Olympic _____. Here was a man that was refused a drink of water in a shop because of the colour of his skin. Well surprise surprise, he did not think that it was right he could be expected to live like that - and yet still be good enough to fight and die for rights he himself was denied.

And no, this is not aimed at bashing America (people that know me know that is not what I do) and the US is no different from ANY other country in having its episodes that it would rather wish it hadn't.

So let's celebrate the positives, let's celebrate a man that tried to make things better by raising awareness of issues that needed raising.

RIP [&o]

[VPaulus]

Please no politics on this thread, otherwise we will lock it.
To be honest I don't think there's a way to avoid getting political with a topic like this.
Please just think twice before writing anything.

[demyansk]

No problem paulus, I just wanted to get some feedback since I never hear about the options offered. I was listening to WFAN about an hour ago and they were talking about this subject. They should have exempted him in the first place and get on with it. Crazy times

[Qwixt]

Well, he was brash and outspoken so that caused more hard feelings than normal. Then you have to put it in context and in the time he lived. Ali couldn't use public libraries, bathrooms, etc... from Texas to Florida to Maryland (pre-civil rights act, "separate but equal"). Then his country drafted him to fight in a dubious conflict. He probably would not have been in a front line unit, but more of a USO type thing.

Tyson was tough, but Ali fought plenty of hard hitters like Foreman. He was agile enough to duck the big blows repeatedly and let them wear out. With that said, I think Tyson would have got one through early, and that's all he ever needed in his prime.

[SuluSea]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: demjansk

I have a question about his refusal to go into the Army.

I haven't heard this discussion yet and it's hypothetical.

If he went into the Army, would he have received a "Plum" assignment like boxing tours? I really can't see them sending him to Vietnam into an 11B unit and fighting the North Vietnamese and the possibility of getting captured.

I wonder if they did any under the table negotiating to get him waived instead of going the route that happened?

I am just curious and even though a lot of soldiers went into the army in ww2,some played baseball the entire time while others like Ted Williams flew fighter planes in both wars.

I just can't see them sending him to a front line unit. By the way, any of the other boxers drafted like Joe Frazier, Norton etc?

warspite1

From what I have read (could be wrong) they tried to persuade him to change his mind with "plum" assignments, but he refused.

Bottom line, and the only thing I have to say on the subject, is this. I can well understand - indeed completely understand - those in the 1960's that were upset by Ali's decision. There were generations alive that had been through WWI and WWII, through Korea, and now there was this fit young man deciding he wouldn't fight for his country.

BUT

Knowing what we know, and with the world (At least trying) to move forward for the better, I have no idea how anyone can still be upset and not understand what he was at least trying to do. Here is a man that came back from winning gold at the Rome Olympics only to be called the Olympic _____. Here was a man that was refused a drink of water in a shop because of the colour of his skin. Well surprise surprise, he did not think that it was right he could be expected to live like that - and yet still be good enough to fight and die for rights he himself was denied.

And no, this is not aimed at bashing America (people that know me know that is not what I do) and the US is no different from ANY other country in having its episodes that it would rather wish it hadn't.

So let's celebrate the positives, let's celebrate a man that tried to make things better by raising awareness of issues that needed raising.

RIP [&o]

Let there be no doubt that he was the beneficiary from the freedoms that others provided and died for even when he had to drink or pee where he didn't want to.

If the country treated him so badly why not move?

Everyone has been a victim at one time or another and all people have been victims because of the color of skin,
religious persecution or politics in play.

Some chose to rise above it. Victimization pays well and sells in the media.

[PipFromSlitherine]

And we are done here.

Cheers

Pip