Same model Naval and Land Gun same slot device?

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el cid again
Posts: 16984
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2005 4:40 pm

RE: Same model Naval and Land Gun same slot device?

Post by el cid again »

With all due respect, nobody knows how the game works. There is no documentation in the proper
sense and the original writers are not around to ask questions about their design intent either.
Access to code does not particularly help either: the senior programmer once wrote "after two
years, I thought I had a handle on how ground combat works. Yesterday I found a branch. Today
I am sure of NOTHING." He also wrote that testing is "at least as good a way to understand
what really happens as reading code is." At least two programmers advise to trust nothing,
in particular a brand new routine just written, without testing to find out what really happens
when it interacts in the context of other code? There is no point in pretending you know what
code says. Even if you do - you may be quite wrong in your assumptions - because of the way
other parts of it interact - or even prevent that routine from being called. Nothing short of
humility and respectful cooperation is going to advance our understanding. Only he who already
knows is unable to learn more. Only he who does not believe he needs to test to be sure the
way he thinks it works is going to find out how, over time, even an originally correct understanding
has been modified, often unintentionally. And yes: many theories are wrong. I just found one
(about off map nation codes) strongly held by a programmer which turns out to be not only wrong,
but harmful if acted upon (at least in some circumstances): he had it because you cannot normally
see those codes when off map. Because the two bytes which define off map hexes are displayed instead.
That does not mean the nation code is not, never mind should not, be present. Or if present, also
is the correct one. The fact is that many things are like that: there is a system, and it is not
consistently honored. Help me understand the system if you can and will. Because I do not claim
perfect understanding. But don't confuse what you think you know with a perfect grasp. I promise,
in these circumstances, that is not possible.

As for history, it is the official game manual which claims for AE that it seeks "an accurate simulation."
Granted "simulation" by definition means "simplification of reality" - still actual historical facts ought
to matter (when not trivial). If the game does not model significant operations well, to that extent,
it failed to achieve its purpose. What we have is a relatively inexpensive model which, given its cost,
works surprisingly well. But it is not only not perfect, it is generally possible to make it better -
if we manipulate the data it must work with. To regard historical facts as 'irrelevant' is to miss the
point of modeling history. But you are not required to read my opinions. If you already know you don't
respect them, please do not. It is a waste of your time, after all, in that case.

ORIGINAL: US87891

ORIGINAL: el cid again

I generally agree -
I do not much care whether you 'generally' agree or not. The game code works as it works irrespective of (mostly false) internet historical factoids.

When people are looking for information regarding the game, please refrain from confusing them with paragraphs of irrelevancies. Either you know how the game works, or you don't.

If you don't, better to say so and have people who do know help you.

Matt
el cid again
Posts: 16984
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2005 4:40 pm

RE: Same model Naval and Land Gun same slot device?

Post by el cid again »

Coal is a resource. In the case of Japan, fully two thirds of all imports to Japan (by weight) are coal.
[See The Japanese Merchant Marine and WWII] However, it is ALSO a kind of fuel - particularly for industry.
Coal is critical for coking in the process of making steel. And steel is the most important of all materials
after petroleum products in terms of industrial production. [I believe Liddle-Hart makes this point in On
Strategy.] Steel, it seems, has lots of uses: rifles, frames for factories, motor vehicles including fighting
vehicles, transport ships, warships, rails for rail lines - the list is endless. Yet any given batch of steel
can be used for only one thing. And you don't get ANY steel without coal. For this reason, RHS models coal
required for HI centers on the assumption much of it is consumed as fuel in the process. At the same time,
we assume that coal, or its poor cousin peat, or even wood, are used to "fuel" (power) Light Industry. Thus
the ratio of resources in per supply point (or HI point) out involves two calculations: (1) what are the
actual resources needed to make the point (the substance from which it is made) and (2) what is the "fuel"
which must be consumed to make that point? In all cases, the 'stuff' is measured in tons. In simplified
form, you have "actual resources in to make the point" plus "coal required to power the industry making that point"
on the input side (in tons) vs the number of HI or LI points produced (on the output side). Note that the game
has three different ways to make supply points (HI Centers, LI Centers and Oil Refineries) - each with a different
input cost to output ratio. In two of those cases (HI and LI) - the 'fuel consumed' to make the supply point is
coal. In one (Oil refineries) it is oil. HI points are similar in that they have an input cost but there is only
one industry that can make them (HI) and there is only one cost to get them. I think HI points are mainly steel
- particularly if one measures in terms of weight. At least as much coal is used to produce an HI point as is
actual 'resources' - in this instance - iron ore. And that ore isn't pure iron or other minerals needed to make
the ton of steel. So assume about 1/3 of the input (other than a small amount of fuel) is coal, 1/3 is the
useful content of the iron ore, and 1/3 is the discarded slag once the iron has been removed from the ore. In this
way you can model the need for coal, and ships to move it: they are the most efficient way to move heavy stuff
like coal and iron ore. It might be good if there is tension between what you need to move to have industry fully
working, and your ability to move it. That would reward a player who cut your line of communications.

ORIGINAL: Dili

@el cid:Italian oil came from Italy proper very small production- i am unsure yet how to model coal if resource or oil - from Albania - so very short sea trip- and from Romania like you said plus from Germany. There was a trade of tankers from Black Sea to Italy to get Romanian oil since land supply appear not enough(or too expensive) and sometimes was blocked. Some of those tankers were blocked in Black Sea until Greece was taken by Axis.

@Matt i understand that and i have been checking my devices with DaBabes which i have read seems to have been made a further effort and i am not seeing much difference, for example between Bofors, or between 40cm 3YT CD naval gun so for land and 40cm 3YT naval gun for ships. Now if we go to Army wps vs Naval gun i know that the accuracy is differently modeled, but seems to have been a conscientious decision to put all CD guns as Naval gun and not as Army weapon.
@el cid:Italian oil came from Italy proper very small production- i am unsure yet how to model coal if resource or oil - from Albania - so very short sea trip- and from Romania like you said plus from Germany. There was a trade of tankers from Black Sea to Italy to get Romanian oil since land supply appear not enough(or too expensive) and sometimes was blocked. Some of those tankers were blocked in Black Sea until Greece was taken by Axis.
Dili
Posts: 4742
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 4:33 pm

RE: Same model Naval and Land Gun same slot device?

Post by Dili »

There is no need for ships to move coal since it is all in Italy and Germany.

Axis having a limited supply production in Italy, with HI industries in North Africa forces the player to send fuel. Forcing the player to employ their tankers historically- Oil from Black Sea and Albania and Fuel to North Africa.

Also merchants need to send resources to that HI industry. I don't want ideally to cover all NA supply needs from indigenous supply production but i have to keep the historical values of fuel sent in mind, the first complete year of War 1941, Axis sent a little more than 232000t of fuel. Now i have to understand and then do the calculation of what value of HI to soak this kind of fuel.
el cid again
Posts: 16984
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2005 4:40 pm

RE: Same model Naval and Land Gun same slot device?

Post by el cid again »

You have lost me in terms of economic logic, but I can tell you how to do what you
seem to want to do? Since fuel has only two functions (ship fuel and an input to HI),
and since there isn't ANY HI in North Africa, I would let any fuel sent there be for
ships.

But IF you want to consume fuel in HI in North Africa - you may want to consider
the first page of the Scenario Editor. It permits you to define ANY ratio you
like between resources in, fuel in, HI out and LI out. Since everything is in
tons (the chief programmer once sent an email saying 'a ton is a ton is a ton') -
each HI point and each supply point of output is a ton. Similarly, each fuel
consumed and each resource point consumed is also a ton.

Stock has an output of 4 for HI (2 supply and 2 HI points).

It also has an input of 22 tons (20 resources and 2 fuel points).

The ratio is 5.5 tons of input to 1 ton of output. This need not be the ratio you
use: it is deliberately available for a modder to change. IF you make HI centers
more productive, you don't need as many of them.

After experimenting over a wide range, RHS settled on an output of 10 tons (4 supply
and 6 HI points) per day per undamaged HI center which has the required inputs. The
inputs are 24 resources plus 8 fuel = 32 tons. That means each ton of output needs
3.2 tons of input. Note in particular the larger ratio of fuel consumed. If your
purpose is to have HI centers consume fuel, do not feel obligated to leave fuel
requirements as low as stock does.

Note that the OUTPUT of HI centers TIMES the total number of them determines the
HI points and much of the supply points made each turn. We found that we had to cut
back on supplies per HI center (it was once six) to avoid a glut of supply. That should
indicate the upper bound of what might work.
ORIGINAL: Dili

There is no need for ships to move coal since it is all in Italy and Germany.

Axis having a limited supply production in Italy, with HI industries in North Africa forces the player to send fuel. Forcing the player to employ their tankers historically- Oil from Black Sea and Albania and Fuel to North Africa.

Also merchants need to send resources to that HI industry. I don't want ideally to cover all NA supply needs from indigenous supply production but i have to keep the historical values of fuel sent in mind, the first complete year of War 1941, Axis sent a little more than 232000t of fuel. Now i have to understand and then do the calculation of what value of HI to soak this kind of fuel.
Dili
Posts: 4742
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 4:33 pm

RE: Same model Naval and Land Gun same slot device?

Post by Dili »

Cid has nothing to do with economic logic, it has to do with trying to simulate the real circumstances. If i don't force the player to send more fuel to North Africa most of the tankers ships will stay in the harbor.
Neither Royal Navy can upset the Axis as IRL since tankers are a rarer asset than cargo ships if they are almost not necessary.

Of those 232000t fuel sent in 1941 only 34000t was for Regia Marina and that includes fuel to land support units like trucks, coastal artillery etc.

el cid again
Posts: 16984
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2005 4:40 pm

RE: Same model Naval and Land Gun same slot device?

Post by el cid again »

I don't understand why you don't want to use the tankers in their real role -
send oil from Rumania to Italy - and instead want them to send it where it is
generally not needed?

Note that fuel may be transported by AKs and tankers not used at all. They
are simply a more efficient way to send fuel. [An AK or ALK in either cargo
or transport missions may 'load fuel']. Fuel to refuel ships in North Africa
makes sense. To feed fictional HI does not make sense to me, at least. If
you fear the tankers won't be used - do not put them in the scenario - as a
way to simplify it.

Dili
Posts: 4742
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 4:33 pm

RE: Same model Naval and Land Gun same slot device?

Post by Dili »

How can you say that when i already told you that Italian tankers sent 232000t of fuel to North Africa in 1941?

el cid again
Posts: 16984
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2005 4:40 pm

RE: Same model Naval and Land Gun same slot device?

Post by el cid again »

Do you did. But did they, in game terms? Game "fuel" is mainly ship fuel. It is NOT
aviation spirit or vehicle fuel. It also has a role more or less modeling industrial
chemicals in manufacturing. But we know there isn't any heavy manufacturing in North
Africa. The question really is: how much SHIP fuel did they send to North Africa.
The secondary question is "will a player actually use even that much ship fuel in North
Africa?" If the answer is 'yes'- then no problem. If the answer is 'no' then limit
the tankers to the level they can ship what you think is likely to be used. It is very
hard going from crude real world statistics to meaningful numbers in game terms: fuel
in the game is not fuel IRL. Never mind what they sent - figure out what they sent
which was used as ship fuel - do not create fictional industry to consume it (and
make local supply too easy in the process). IMHO - you are in charge of you and of your
mod
Dili
Posts: 4742
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 4:33 pm

RE: Same model Naval and Land Gun same slot device?

Post by Dili »

el cid sorry for late reply been off web for some days.

Since most of the fuel sent is to "fabricate" supply in North Africa then it is to be consumed by units nothing changes of your correct statement that fuel is also supply.

Of course i don't intend to send fuel to "make local supply too easy", and i even think it almost impossible to do since for 2 supply points there is need of 2 fuel and 20 resources.


If i oblige the player to send 2 fuel points it is equivalent of sending 2 supply points i think in terms of tonnage. I can can even force to send some resources if i make resource production not enough.


Another issue are the long land distances in play sending supply by just one coastal road.

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