Underway Replenishment Test

[rustysi]

Don't know why two were white and the rest green, however.

Oh, oh pick me... pick me I know.[:D] I was reading an old post and MichaelM was talking about adding this feature to show whether gun ammo could be loaded at that port or not. Obviously he added it. Don't know if that would apply at sea though, I kinda doubt it.

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

Seven. Post-replenishment. Ops points consumed on AO only.

You have "do not unload" set. That should not make a difference, but I wonder if it does ....

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: rustysi

Don't know why two were white and the rest green, however.

Oh, oh pick me... pick me I know.[:D] I was reading an old post and MichaelM was talking about adding this feature to show whether gun ammo could be loaded at that port or not. Obviously he added it. Don't know if that would apply at sea though, I kinda doubt it.

Good catch. In Downfall, Guam port is at 4(2), but with multi-hundreds naval support. I'm always surprised after looking at this UI for thousands of hours the things I don't "see."

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

Seven. Post-replenishment. Ops points consumed on AO only.

You have "do not unload" set. That should not make a difference, but I wonder if it does ....

I just did an off-line mini-run with just NJ and Mt. Baker, Do Not Unload not applied. No difference. No ammo transferred. Good idea though. That's what I mean by being too close to the test and its fiddly aspects. I never thought NOT to apply this button as it was a multi-day pierside load.

[Lokasenna]

IIRC, the load cost of projectiles is based on its effect rating. What happens if you edit the 16" gun's effect rating to be lower?

[BBfanboy]

You should also try one of the South Dakota/North Carolina BBs which use the 16"/45 gun and in port can be replenished from a 4200 ton capacity AKE. This would indicate if the problem is related to the coding for the 16"/50 gun of the Iowa class.

[paradigmblue]

Are you right-clicking so that it replenishes ammo, or are you left clicking so that it replenishes fuel?

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

You should also try one of the South Dakota/North Carolina BBs which use the 16"/45 gun and in port can be replenished from a 4200 ton capacity AKE. This would indicate if the problem is related to the coding for the 16"/50 gun of the Iowa class.

I doubt it's coding and I doubt it's a failed check on the size of the AE - I think that the higher the effect value, the more Ops it burns to replenish.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: paradigmblue

Are you right-clicking so that it replenishes ammo, or are you left clicking so that it replenishes fuel?

I don't think this works for TFs at sea.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

IIRC, the load cost of projectiles is based on its effect rating. What happens if you edit the 16" gun's effect rating to be lower?

Don't know. But again, the main issue is not failure to load main gun ammo. It's failure to load any slots below main guns.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: paradigmblue

Are you right-clicking so that it replenishes ammo, or are you left clicking so that it replenishes fuel?

At sea replenishment is just a left click. But I'll check it.

Edit: checked. Just NJ and Mt. Baker. Left click and right click both work equally. Fuel is transferred to NJ. No ammo.

[BillBrown]

I tried my own set of tests. I got CLs, CAs and North Carolina BBs to all rearm at sea. The Iowas would not rearm at sea, only at a dot base with AEs disbanded.
I had 6400, 5400, and a 3600 AE in the replenishment TF and 4 large AOs. My AEs were not fully loaded for this test, but the North Carolina BBs were the last
TF to enter the rearm sea hex and the Iowa TF was the third TF to try to rearm. It would seem to me to be a problem with the very large guns of the Iowas, but
I would think more in depth testing is needed. I will see what I can do later today.

[1EyedJacks]

I've enjoyed reading the testing process you've gone through. It's so cool to see members that keep digging into the nuts and bolts of this game; I just wanted to say thanks. From the outside looking in, it appears you've identified a bug. Are you planning to post this in the Support section and ask MichaelM to have a look?

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: 1EyedJacks

I've enjoyed reading the testing process you've gone through. It's so cool to see members that keep digging into the nuts and bolts of this game; I just wanted to say thanks. From the outside looking in, it appears you've identified a bug. Are you planning to post this in the Support section and ask MichaelM to have a look?

I was going to wait and see if Alfred weighs in on the with-AO test. If not, or if he thinks it's off, I'll post in Tech.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: BillBrown

I tried my own set of tests. I got CLs, CAs and North Carolina BBs to all rearm at sea. The Iowas would not rearm at sea, only at a dot base with AEs disbanded.
I had 6400, 5400, and a 3600 AE in the replenishment TF and 4 large AOs. My AEs were not fully loaded for this test, but the North Carolina BBs were the last
TF to enter the rearm sea hex and the Iowa TF was the third TF to try to rearm. It would seem to me to be a problem with the very large guns of the Iowas, but
I would think more in depth testing is needed. I will see what I can do later today.

Per my first, non-screenie post in the thread I also got Iowa, Boston, and Ault to individually rearm at sea. This issue isn't Iowa vs. North Carolina. It seems to be degree of need. I used the editor in the screenie tests to make New Jersey virtually flat empty of ammo. And in that case nothing moves. If New Jersey needed, say (from my first post) a couple of cycles of 16 inch and two cycles of 5in, she would replenish. It's when the Slot 1 weapon demands more Ops points than the AE can support that it stops in its tracks. In that case nothing, not even boxes of 20MM, moves across.

[Lokasenna]

I think we're at the point this can be put into the tech support forum for Michael to look at. We're just guessing without being able to look at the lines of code, but he'd be able to go look at it and compare to the port replenishment code to see if anything's off.

Also, if the intent was to only allow replenishment up to a certain device size, he could fix that too.

[Itdepends]

I've duplicated parts of the test conducted by Bullwinkle above and agree it's likely a bug. The Iowa's will replenish main gun ammunition happily at sea after using ~50% of their loads but when I took one down to a load of 2 (in the red, by multiple bombardments) it would not reload at sea or when in a TF at a dot base. Disbanding it in the dot base and then requesting it to refuel/rearm (with an AE disbanded in the base) did rearm the ship.

A couple of things of interest
-Requesting a replenishment TF to meet and "refuel" a combat TF also rearms the TF at sea (tested using an AE in the downfall scenario)

-Alfreds statement that "refuelling from another TF bunkers is not supposed to happen" does not reflect the what happens in game. Put two TF's at sea in the same hex and request one to replenish- it will pull fuel from the bunkers of the other TF (if it has sufficient fuel available for it's own orders) - regardless of whether the other TF has an AO in place. This has been the case for as long as I can remember. I assume Alfred has read posts from the dev's previously that lead him to believe this should not happen. Personally I'd leave it in place because it allows you to top up a TF without shuffling ships back and forth.

-Alfreds statement that the threshold check is made against the on board supply points of the tender is incorrect and not consistent with page 284 of the manual. I was able to successfully rearm Iowa's (rearm cost 5400) with tenders loaded with between 2000 and 4000 points of supply. The check is made against the tender cargo capacity. This makes sense as the restriction is in place to make sure small AKE's/AE's can't reload large shells- i.e. it's a tender size check, not a supply availability check.

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: Itdepends

I've duplicated parts of the test conducted by Bullwinkle above and agree it's likely a bug. The Iowa's will replenish main gun ammunition happily at sea after using ~50% of their loads but when I took one down to a load of 2 (in the red, by multiple bombardments) it would not reload at sea or when in a TF at a dot base. Disbanding it in the dot base and then requesting it to refuel/rearm (with an AE disbanded in the base) did rearm the ship.

A couple of things of interest
-Requesting a replenishment TF to meet and "refuel" a combat TF also rearms the TF at sea (tested using an AE in the downfall scenario)

-Alfreds statement that "refuelling from another TF bunkers is not supposed to happen" does not reflect the what happens in game. Put two TF's at sea in the same hex and request one to replenish- it will pull fuel from the bunkers of the other TF (if it has sufficient fuel available for it's own orders) - regardless of whether the other TF has an AO in place. This has been the case for as long as I can remember. I assume Alfred has read posts from the dev's previously that lead him to believe this should not happen. Personally I'd leave it in place because it allows you to top up a TF without shuffling ships back and forth.

I understood Alfred to be saying the AE was never meant to act as a means of replenishing fuel - i.e. an underway replenishment TF was assumed to have AOs and AEs to do their respective replenishing.

-Alfreds statement that the threshold check is made against the on board supply points of the tender is incorrect and not consistent with page 284 of the manual. I was able to successfully rearm Iowa's (rearm cost 5400) with tenders loaded with between 2000 and 4000 points of supply. The check is made against the tender cargo capacity. This makes sense as the restriction is in place to make sure small AKE's/AE's can't reload large shells- i.e. it's a tender size check, not a supply availability check.

I think you misunderstood Alfred. The threshold check is supposed to check if there is enough supply on board to load ONE point of ammo for the slots needing replenishment. Alfred contends that the game looks at the first slot and if there is not enough supply or operations points to fill it, it moves on to the next slot.

[Lokasenna]

If, however, an AO with fuel is not present in the hex, then ships will refuel from other ships' bunkers, and it will look at other TFs first: a TF with 2 ships, one with 20 Fuel and one with 50 Fuel, will first look for other TFs in the hex to refuel from (whether AOs or other ships) before redistributing the fuel between the 2 ships (typically escorts will get topped off by bigger ships). I literally just tested this a few turns ago in one of my games as I desired the TF to refuel from another in the hex rather than just redistributing its fuel.

This is what was happening with the AE in Bullwinkle's tests, and indeed would continue to occur even if the AE was transferring ammo. It would also attempt to transfer fuel, Ops permitting.

[Itdepends]

As for the first point- this seems pretty clear

ORIGINAL: Alfred
IOW the AE is in a separate TF to that which contains the Iowa class and refuelling from another TF bunkers is not supposed to happen.

As for the rearm cost check He clearly states that the threshold check is made between the reload cost and the supply on board the ship.

ORIGINAL: Alfred
Does the tender have on board supply points greater than or equal to the Rearm Cost of the "biggest" weapon (IOW the first weapon slot which needs ammo).

He then indicates that a fully loaded AE that reloads an Iowa can then no longer be able to reload any other Iowa class ships because of the supply expenditure. This is incorrect. (note that the point 7 Alfred refers to below is the supply expenditure by the tender to reload the first ship- hence causing it's on board supply to drop below 5400).

ORIGINAL: Alfred
6. The rearm cost is detailed in the manual. For naval guns it is 2x the effect value. Thus the 16in/50 Mkk7 of the Iowa class has a rearm cost of 5400. They therefore need an AE/AKE with a cargo capacity of 5400 and have on board 5400 supply points. Once the tender has rearmed any weapon on an Iowa class, it will have dipped below the threshold check (see point 7) and cannot rearm the rifles of any other Iowa.