China

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: jwolf

Many thanks GetAssista, I'm in the thick of reading that one now. What a game!! [X(]

Be warned, many, many patches ago.

[Yaab]

ORIGINAL: jwolf

Have any AARs featured an early war Japan-USSR fight? I'd love to read one.

Seydlitz, Seydlitz, Seydlitz... A.D. 2009
tm.asp?m=2228497&mpage=1&key=

[Rusty1961]

I am currently playing as the allies in July of '42 and am holding along the Tuyun-Kweiyang-Chihkyang-road hex NW or Chihyang. And hex 76,51.

I gave up Sian-untenable-and hold the mountains 2 and 3 hexes west of Sian.

A competent Japanese player will break your line. Pulling back to the line I described just postpones the inevitable. Their artillery support is just too powerful.

[John B.]

One thing for China is that you know the roads that Japan has to follow so you should prepare a defense in depth. Have some corps further up the roads sitting in rough terrain so that they are well dug in by the time the IJN gets there. And, where ever the Japanese have to cross a river, be ready to make them pay for the privilege. If they start taking off through rough terrain by the time they get to the clear they will have real supply problems. Use fighters for ambushes when you can but I'm not sure bombing from China will do you much good and it eats up supply. However, if you get Ledo to level 9 airbase (and pack it with flak) you can use long range bombers from there to cover the Chungking plain and its environs as well as use Ledo to fly supply into China.

Also, if the IJA is going hard for China and putting everything into it, you do have a lot of US divisions in CONUS that you can release for duty in India. Make Japan defend Burma because the more he puts there the less he is putting into China.

[Sangeli]

Personally I have had great success playing as China with stacking. Fortification in non-base hexes is really an underrated (and perhaps broken) art. Unlike regular bases, units dug into non-base hexes can't have their fort level reduced. And you can get up to level 6 fortifications! In 3x terrain its nearly impossible to root out these units. The way most people get beaten in China is either getting caught out on the open or being outmaneuvered. Also getting supply convoys to Burma from day 1 is to help stabilize defenses early on. Once you get time to dig in and get prep bonus at key 3x bases, you can do amazing things. In my current match I managed to extract over 125,000 Japanese casualties with about 125,000 Chinese troops in SE China guarding 3x hexes (Wenchow to the base NW of it and just at the stacking limit) after being cut off in a year long plus battle (20% escaped, 30% still encircled and fighting).

[pontiouspilot]

I have always thought that an interesting scenario would see the Japanese player act rationally at outset...ie. attack Sov Union, China, Fr Indo and Britain. The US player would only activate if Phill or USA attacked or randomly if perhaps India or Aust threatened.

[Rio Bravo]

I find this discussion on the defense of China extremely interesting as the PBEM I am presently playing with El Lobo has experienced considerable action from day one of the outbreak of hostilities.

El Lobo and I agreed not to have any house rules with the exception to ignore victory points.

Accordingly, El Lobo didn't need to pay political points to unleash the Japanese in Manchukua.

The difficulties I have faced in attempting to save Chungking are as follows:

1. Low supply from day one.

2. Chinese using sling-shots and throwing rocks at hardened, experienced, well armed Japanese infantry, tanks, artillery, and aircraft.

3. Either quite low on supply or entirely out of supply, movement is rather slow. El Lobo's troops usually managed to cut my Chinese off well before they could reach their destination.

Having read advice from others on China, watching AARs involving a hard push in China, and after considerable thought given to the defense of China, I adopted the following tactics:

1.) Never attack (the Chinese get creamed, get little for their effort in terms of Japanese casualties, and what little supply the Chinese has gets drained faster).

2.) Attempt to determine the Japanese intended paths of Advancement and then block him in the mountains, forests, behind rivers, and at bases with good fort levels.

3.) Attempt to disrupt Japanese logistics. From day one, I intentionally hid Chinese in the forests two hexes off main roads and railways that I anticipated the Japanese would use foe their advance to Chungking. My brave Chinese would catch rats for food, store up rocks, sit and wait. As soon as the Japanese wave passed my hungry Chinese, I would move them into the forests or mountains behind El Lobo's advancing forces.

As to number 3. immediately above, I can't tell you how effective that tactic has been. I hope that El Lobo's Japanese have had some supply problems, but whether he has, only he could tell you.

It is October 31, 1942 in our game and the Chinese do hold Chengtu and Chungking. However, El Lobo has rung the doorbell at Chungking (he is right next door). I pretend that I am deaf.

In my opinion, if the Gorilla wants China and makes a Pitbull-determined, well-planned, and methodical dedication to take China, the Gorilla will own all the bananas in China.

Best Regards,

-Terry

[SqzMyLemon]

ORIGINAL: Sangeli

Fortification in non-base hexes is really an underrated (and perhaps broken) art. Unlike regular bases, units dug into non-base hexes can't have their fort level reduced. And you can get up to level 6 fortifications! In 3x terrain its nearly impossible to root out these units.

This is how China can hold. You nailed it on the head, field fortifications can't be reduced and that, to me, is a broken game mechanic. Defending bases in China is folly because the fort levels can be reduced. Defend in 3x terrain and build up the fort levels in a small 20-40k hex, and the Japanese will never budge you. It's not so much the defence that breaks Japan, but the fact that their forces are reduced by 1/3 when attacking. I brought this up years ago and was ignored. Invulnerable field fortifications is how you break Japan or buy yourself enough time to survive.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: Rio Bravo

I find this discussion on the defense of China extremely interesting as the PBEM I am presently playing with El Lobo has experienced considerable action from day one of the outbreak of hostilities.

El Lobo and I agreed not to have any house rules with the exception to ignore victory points.

Accordingly, El Lobo didn't need to pay political points to unleash the Japanese in Manchukua.

The difficulties I have faced in attempting to save Chungking are as follows:

1. Low supply from day one.

2. Chinese using sling-shots and throwing rocks at hardened, experienced, well armed Japanese infantry, tanks, artillery, and aircraft.

3. Either quite low on supply or entirely out of supply, movement is rather slow. El Lobo's troops usually managed to cut my Chinese off well before they could reach their destination.

Having read advice from others on China, watching AARs involving a hard push in China, and after considerable thought given to the defense of China, I adopted the following tactics:

1.) Never attack (the Chinese get creamed, get little for their effort in terms of Japanese casualties, and what little supply the Chinese has gets drained faster).

2.) Attempt to determine the Japanese intended paths of Advancement and then block him in the mountains, forests, behind rivers, and at bases with good fort levels.

3.) Attempt to disrupt Japanese logistics. From day one, I intentionally hid Chinese in the forests two hexes off main roads and railways that I anticipated the Japanese would use foe their advance to Chungking. My brave Chinese would catch rats for food, store up rocks, sit and wait. As soon as the Japanese wave passed my hungry Chinese, I would move them into the forests or mountains behind El Lobo's advancing forces.

As to number 3. immediately above, I can't tell you how effective that tactic has been. I hope that El Lobo's Japanese have had some supply problems, but whether he has, only he could tell you.

It is October 31, 1942 in our game and the Chinese do hold Chengtu and Chungking. However, El Lobo has rung the doorbell at Chungking (he is right next door). I pretend that I am deaf.

In my opinion, if the Gorilla wants China and makes a Pitbull-determined, well-planned, and methodical dedication to take China, the Gorilla will own all the bananas in China.

Best Regards,

-Terry

Your game has one, very important HR that most do not ... "didn't need to pay political points to unleash the Japanese in Manchukua"
This completely changes the IJ timetable and allows them to get into position before the allies. Hence, yes, I see no way barring a lot of lucky rolls and/or some rather large mistakes on the IJ side, for the allies to hold china into late '42.

[Rio Bravo]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: Rio Bravo

I find this discussion on the defense of China extremely interesting as the PBEM I am presently playing with El Lobo has experienced considerable action from day one of the outbreak of hostilities.

El Lobo and I agreed not to have any house rules with the exception to ignore victory points.

Accordingly, El Lobo didn't need to pay political points to unleash the Japanese in Manchukua.

The difficulties I have faced in attempting to save Chungking are as follows:

1. Low supply from day one.

2. Chinese using sling-shots and throwing rocks at hardened, experienced, well armed Japanese infantry, tanks, artillery, and aircraft.

3. Either quite low on supply or entirely out of supply, movement is rather slow. El Lobo's troops usually managed to cut my Chinese off well before they could reach their destination.

Having read advice from others on China, watching AARs involving a hard push in China, and after considerable thought given to the defense of China, I adopted the following tactics:

1.) Never attack (the Chinese get creamed, get little for their effort in terms of Japanese casualties, and what little supply the Chinese has gets drained faster).

2.) Attempt to determine the Japanese intended paths of Advancement and then block him in the mountains, forests, behind rivers, and at bases with good fort levels.

3.) Attempt to disrupt Japanese logistics. From day one, I intentionally hid Chinese in the forests two hexes off main roads and railways that I anticipated the Japanese would use foe their advance to Chungking. My brave Chinese would catch rats for food, store up rocks, sit and wait. As soon as the Japanese wave passed my hungry Chinese, I would move them into the forests or mountains behind El Lobo's advancing forces.

As to number 3. immediately above, I can't tell you how effective that tactic has been. I hope that El Lobo's Japanese have had some supply problems, but whether he has, only he could tell you.

It is October 31, 1942 in our game and the Chinese do hold Chengtu and Chungking. However, El Lobo has rung the doorbell at Chungking (he is right next door). I pretend that I am deaf.

In my opinion, if the Gorilla wants China and makes a Pitbull-determined, well-planned, and methodical dedication to take China, the Gorilla will own all the bananas in China.

Best Regards,

-Terry

Your game has one, very important HR that most do not ... "didn't need to pay political points to unleash the Japanese in Manchukua"
This completely changes the IJ timetable and allows them to get into position before the allies. Hence, yes, I see no way barring a lot of lucky rolls and/or some rather large mistakes on the IJ side, for the allies to hold china into late '42.

Good Evening Pax-

I have read many of your posts and have found you to be experienced, knowledgeable and reasonable.

Yes, El Lobo and I both knew that the Japanese not having to pay political points to cross the border from Manchukua into China would benefit the Japanese.

El Lobo has never played a strategic war game before playing this one with me. On the other hand, I have played these type games for years with cardboard squares on hex maps. This game takes the old games to a new, exciting level of play.

I am impressed with El Lobo's calm-headed, steady progress toward Chungking. I have no doubt that Chungking will fall.

Best Regards,

-Terry

[Sangeli]

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

ORIGINAL: Sangeli

Fortification in non-base hexes is really an underrated (and perhaps broken) art. Unlike regular bases, units dug into non-base hexes can't have their fort level reduced. And you can get up to level 6 fortifications! In 3x terrain its nearly impossible to root out these units.

This is how China can hold. You nailed it on the head, field fortifications can't be reduced and that, to me, is a broken game mechanic. Defending bases in China is folly because the fort levels can be reduced. Defend in 3x terrain and build up the fort levels in a small 20-40k hex, and the Japanese will never budge you. It's not so much the defence that breaks Japan, but the fact that their forces are reduced by 1/3 when attacking. I brought this up years ago and was ignored. Invulnerable field fortifications is how you break Japan or buy yourself enough time to survive.

Actually defending bases can go well IF you stack to the limit, have full preparation, and a strong fort to start. I've seen my adjusted AV jump up to 4x their original amount in these situations. But you still have to guard bases in terrain and you shouldn't bother unless that base has industry or sits along a major road.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: Sangeli

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

ORIGINAL: Sangeli

Fortification in non-base hexes is really an underrated (and perhaps broken) art. Unlike regular bases, units dug into non-base hexes can't have their fort level reduced. And you can get up to level 6 fortifications! In 3x terrain its nearly impossible to root out these units.

This is how China can hold. You nailed it on the head, field fortifications can't be reduced and that, to me, is a broken game mechanic. Defending bases in China is folly because the fort levels can be reduced. Defend in 3x terrain and build up the fort levels in a small 20-40k hex, and the Japanese will never budge you. It's not so much the defence that breaks Japan, but the fact that their forces are reduced by 1/3 when attacking. I brought this up years ago and was ignored. Invulnerable field fortifications is how you break Japan or buy yourself enough time to survive.

Actually defending bases can go well IF you stack to the limit, have full preparation, and a strong fort to start. I've seen my adjusted AV jump up to 4x their original amount in these situations. But you still have to guard bases in terrain and you shouldn't bother unless that base has industry or sits along a major road.

The issue, to me, in trying to defend bases is that supply is very susceptible to bombing ... in terrain much, much less.
So, when I am defending without air superiority and no hope to ever contest it (like the allies in china in '42), I defend in terrain.
When defending and I am able to contest air superiority, like the IJ in 43/44, I defend bases.
When the allies are able to marshal enough 4E's to hit a hex with +1000x bombs in a day, it really doesn't matter. [;)]

[Major Shane]

Pax, do you have an AAR post of your current game? Where you are going after SOV in 42?

[Mundy]

One more mundane point are leaders. I've found that purging the real losers from their commands for even someone halfway average can make a good difference.

[Sangeli]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo
The issue, to me, in trying to defend bases is that supply is very susceptible to bombing ... in terrain much, much less.
So, when I am defending without air superiority and no hope to ever contest it (like the allies in china in '42), I defend in terrain.
When defending and I am able to contest air superiority, like the IJ in 43/44, I defend bases.
When the allies are able to marshal enough 4E's to hit a hex with +1000x bombs in a day, it really doesn't matter. [;)]

Ah. I play with a house rule about bombing air bases in China just to destroy supply.

[John B.]

Sangeli

That's an interesting house rule that I think can be very helpful to China along with the no strat bombing of the few factories that they do have.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: Sangeli

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo
The issue, to me, in trying to defend bases is that supply is very susceptible to bombing ... in terrain much, much less.
So, when I am defending without air superiority and no hope to ever contest it (like the allies in china in '42), I defend in terrain.
When defending and I am able to contest air superiority, like the IJ in 43/44, I defend bases.
When the allies are able to marshal enough 4E's to hit a hex with +1000x bombs in a day, it really doesn't matter. [;)]

Ah. I play with a house rule about bombing air bases in China just to destroy supply.

Sorry, I wasn't referring to that (separate discussion if that is an exploit (or not) needing an HR, but in any case it is up to the players so game on!).

My point was that when you bomb a base with units in it, supply is hit and hit hard. You can't control it as a player.
So, having units in a base is an invitation to lose supply if you cannot control the air above it.

In any case, my opponent (Andy AI) does NOT respect any HR's. I have to adapt to whatever he chooses to do. [:D]
[:D][:D]

[GetAssista]

The only downside about camping in the wilderness is that LCUs can't take extra supply with them. The bulk of supply will still be vulnerable stacked in bases, and LCUs out there can run out relatively quickly if cut off.

[Sangeli]

ORIGINAL: GetAssista
The only downside about camping in the wilderness is that LCUs can't take extra supply with them.

Is that really a downside? Considering how little supply there is, taking extra would drain bases even faster.

[GetAssista]

ORIGINAL: Sangeli

ORIGINAL: GetAssista
The only downside about camping in the wilderness is that LCUs can't take extra supply with them.

Is that really a downside? Considering how little supply there is, taking extra would drain bases even faster.

Supply does no good for bases in China, it is solely for LCU consumption. Plus it is vulnerable to bombing

One relevant example from AI game is when I kicked AI out of San Francisco. Each of 100+ retreated Allied units took ~10 times their usuall supply allotment with them. And it was quite the pain in the rear to make them expend this supply later to starve them out and reduce. Usually LCUs go in the red and start getting their firepower reduced right after they are cut off from supply.

Edit: also, I believe supply carried by LCU does not get reduced by terrain. LCU spends some when moving, but it's far from 25-30% per hex in cases of rough terrain. You really do not want excessive supply overland lines in China.