Underway Replenishment Test

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Lokasenna
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RE: Underway Replenishment Test

Post by Lokasenna »

ORIGINAL: Itdepends

As for the first point- this seems pretty clear
ORIGINAL: Alfred
IOW the AE is in a separate TF to that which contains the Iowa class and refuelling from another TF bunkers is not supposed to happen.

As for the rearm cost check He clearly states that the threshold check is made between the reload cost and the supply on board the ship.
ORIGINAL: Alfred
Does the tender have on board supply points greater than or equal to the Rearm Cost of the "biggest" weapon (IOW the first weapon slot which needs ammo).

He then indicates that a fully loaded AE that reloads an Iowa can then no longer be able to reload any other Iowa class ships because of the supply expenditure. This is incorrect. (note that the point 7 Alfred refers to below is the supply expenditure by the tender to reload the first ship- hence causing it's on board supply to drop below 5400).
ORIGINAL: Alfred
6. The rearm cost is detailed in the manual. For naval guns it is 2x the effect value. Thus the 16in/50 Mkk7 of the Iowa class has a rearm cost of 5400. They therefore need an AE/AKE with a cargo capacity of 5400 and have on board 5400 supply points. Once the tender has rearmed any weapon on an Iowa class, it will have dipped below the threshold check (see point 7) and cannot rearm the rifles of any other Iowa.

Refueling "from another TFs bunkers" happens all the time, and always has. Try it sometime.

Also, the bolded part is not what's preventing this from occurring.
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RE: Underway Replenishment Test

Post by Itdepends »

Well aware ofthat Lokasenna, I was replying to BBfa boy.
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RE: Underway Replenishment Test

Post by BBfanboy »

I never said refuelling does not happen between ships. What I said was that I interpret Alfred's comment to mean the developers intended that a replenishment TF for underway replenishment should always have an AO to handle fuel needs and the AE would only have to handle ammo needs. Otherwise, the risk is that the combat ships could leave the AE without enough fuel to get back to base.

But there appears to be no code written to force a replenishment-at-sea TF to have both AO and AE types, so the situation could occur, but it may do something with the coding for the AE services. So it may WAD, but not necessarily the way we want/expect it to work.
No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth
jmalter
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RE: Underway Replenishment Test

Post by jmalter »

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy
I never said refuelling does not happen between ships. What I said was that I interpret Alfred's comment to mean the developers intended that a replenishment TF for underway replenishment should always have an AO to handle fuel needs and the AE would only have to handle ammo needs. Otherwise, the risk is that the combat ships could leave the AE without enough fuel to get back to base.
It's been my experience that the ship(s) supplying fuel from their bunkers will always retain enough fuel to return to their Home Port. I've had occaision to change the supplying TF's HP to a less-distant location, in order to squeeze another few drops of fuel out of it.
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RE: Underway Replenishment Test

Post by Alfred »

Once again there is a hint from some that I invent the information from nothing.
 
Read post #8 dated 12 Sept 2009 from JWE in this thread.
 
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2237174&mpage=1&key=rearm&#2237364
 
It is one of the six key dates I provided in post #22 when either Don Bowen or JWE provided significant details.
 
Mainly in 2009 but also extending into 2010-11, there were numerous complaints from players that rearming did not work.  In the great majority of cases the fault lay not with the code but with the player not understanding the basics.  A few minor bugs were quashed at the time and everything then seemed to be in order.  Which is why I still suspect the problem is not so much with the rearming code per se but in some other action which in turn might negatively impact upon rearming.  The range of external areas which might be adversely impacting upon 1945 underway rearming include:
 
(a) consumption of OP due to refuelling first from AE bunkers in a Replenishment TF.  Even if it is only 250 OP that might still mean the remaining 750 is insufficient for transferring 16in ammo.  Remember we have never been told the OP expenditure rate for any transaction
(b) the code could be "freezing" after taking fuel from a Replenishment TF ie before 1 Jan 1945 there is no at sea rearming, only refuelling or aircraft transfer and the new action of rearming is not being cleanly undertaken/opened
(c) not using WITPLoad to edit the test scenario might be the cause of the problem.  WITPLoad provides scenario designers with more "data fields" to tailor their scenario.  With that program ships can start with partial loads and it is my understanding that the devs use that program
 
Now putting aside the above, in response to one player complaint, Don Bowen did let out that there was a huge logic hole.  He neither identified what it was nor whether it had been plugged, the clear inference being that no one had triggered it and they thought it would be difficult to trigger it.  Before anyone complains about this apparent turning a blind eye to the problem, spare a thought for the complexity of rearming.
 
The "rearm cost" of a weapon is not always 2x the effect value.  For some weapon systems it is the load cost.  You can't make the rearm cost for all weapon systems be the load cost as naval guns have a load cost of 9999.  When JWE, bound as always to his NDA, refered to the "biggest" or the "biggie" in Sept 2009 he didn't specifically state that it was the weapon system in slot 1 but logically that is the case for in the official scenarios the biggest weapon systems start in slot #1 and decrease in size down the slots .  It would unnecessarily complicate the code to search for the "biggest" which is measured using different metrics.  Much easier for the scenario designer to carefully place the weapon systems in order and the code simply has to look down the slot order.
 
It is a fact of life that testing of 1945 code components by the devs was always much more difficult than testing the code for 1942 operations.  There is always a greater possibility that something is not WAD if it can only happen late in the war.  A simple example of this is the fact that they overlooked updating the kamikaze trigger range to take into account the new 40nm hexes of WITP:AE.
 
Whilst I suspect there is something which we are overlooking, enough work has been undertaken to suggest that there is a prima facie issue here that perhaps something is not WAD and therefore michaelm would not be wasting his time if he looked at the code.  We need to not overload michaelm with false bug reports where the error clearly lies with the operator.  That doesn't appear to be the case here.  But don't necessarily expect a quick reply as I suspect michaelm might have to liase with Don Bowen first.
 
Alfred
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RE: Underway Replenishment Test

Post by Lokasenna »

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Once again there is a hint from some that I invent the information from nothing.

Read post #8 dated 12 Sept 2009 from JWE in this thread.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2237174&mpage=1&key=rearm&#2237364

It is one of the six key dates I provided in post #22 when either Don Bowen or JWE provided significant details.

Mainly in 2009 but also extending into 2010-11, there were numerous complaints from players that rearming did not work.  In the great majority of cases the fault lay not with the code but with the player not understanding the basics.  A few minor bugs were quashed at the time and everything then seemed to be in order.  Which is why I still suspect the problem is not so much with the rearming code per se but in some other action which in turn might negatively impact upon rearming.  The range of external areas which might be adversely impacting upon 1945 underway rearming include:

(a) consumption of OP due to refuelling first from AE bunkers in a Replenishment TF.  Even if it is only 250 OP that might still mean the remaining 750 is insufficient for transferring 16in ammo.  Remember we have never been told the OP expenditure rate for any transaction
(b) the code could be "freezing" after taking fuel from a Replenishment TF ie before 1 Jan 1945 there is no at sea rearming, only refuelling or aircraft transfer and the new action of rearming is not being cleanly undertaken/opened
(c) not using WITPLoad to edit the test scenario might be the cause of the problem.  WITPLoad provides scenario designers with more "data fields" to tailor their scenario.  With that program ships can start with partial loads and it is my understanding that the devs use that program

Now putting aside the above, in response to one player complaint, Don Bowen did let out that there was a huge logic hole.  He neither identified what it was nor whether it had been plugged, the clear inference being that no one had triggered it and they thought it would be difficult to trigger it.  Before anyone complains about this apparent turning a blind eye to the problem, spare a thought for the complexity of rearming.

The "rearm cost" of a weapon is not always 2x the effect value.  For some weapon systems it is the load cost.  You can't make the rearm cost for all weapon systems be the load cost as naval guns have a load cost of 9999.  When JWE, bound as always to his NDA, refered to the "biggest" or the "biggie" in Sept 2009 he didn't specifically state that it was the weapon system in slot 1 but logically that is the case for in the official scenarios the biggest weapon systems start in slot #1 and decrease in size down the slots .  It would unnecessarily complicate the code to search for the "biggest" which is measured using different metrics.  Much easier for the scenario designer to carefully place the weapon systems in order and the code simply has to look down the slot order.

It is a fact of life that testing of 1945 code components by the devs was always much more difficult than testing the code for 1942 operations.  There is always a greater possibility that something is not WAD if it can only happen late in the war.  A simple example of this is the fact that they overlooked updating the kamikaze trigger range to take into account the new 40nm hexes of WITP:AE.

Whilst I suspect there is something which we are overlooking, enough work has been undertaken to suggest that there is a prima facie issue here that perhaps something is not WAD and therefore michaelm would not be wasting his time if he looked at the code.  We need to not overload michaelm with false bug reports where the error clearly lies with the operator.  That doesn't appear to be the case here.  But don't necessarily expect a quick reply as I suspect michaelm might have to liase with Don Bowen first.

Alfred

RE: a) Ah, yes. It could be transferring fuel first rather than checking ammo first. While we're never told the Ops cost of things, from observation it's easy to see that 250 Ops is the minimum amount for any kind of at-sea replenishment (be it fuel or ammo).

There still appears to be a bug in that there's not enough Ops left to rearm when the ammo was not as low as 2(13) but it did rearm when there was more ammo left than that. Doing more iterations of the test with various ammo levels could help nail down a few more conjectures, but since none of us can fix it then it just makes sense for Michael to have a look at his leisure.
Itdepends
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RE: Underway Replenishment Test

Post by Itdepends »

Alfred
Not a suggestion that your information has no basis, just in this case your comment on the threshold check using the loaded supply does not match the manual or the behaivour in game. Perhaps you should test it yourself before reviewing that section of the manual. Take a fully loaded 5400t AE or AKE and try replenishing two Iowas in a dot base hex. If you have any problems feel free to post screen shots so we can troubleshoot for you.
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