Tale of the Sheep! - JocMeister (A) vs. Lowpe (J)

[BBfanboy]

+1 to Hans' take on it. Let him do the attacking against your Level 9 forts in +3 terrain. The IJA shreds itself on Chinese units in mountain terrain in China so your troops (green or not) should be able to do the same.

In fact, once you figure out how much he is bringing there keep just enough troops to deny it to him and send the rest to help SD.
I assume he will not be able to capture SD immediately and will have marched everything down the roads so you can get there and merge with the defenders rather than fighting his stack outside SD.

[IJV]

I'd be tempted to say that attacking at LA right now could make sense, actually, on account of stacking limits - if you don't have control of the LA-SNA hexside then any land move towards SD has to go through March Field (and therefore mountains) - anything you do up there will have equivalently bad terrain but much more awkward stacking limits, and if the Japanese have set off towards March from SNA and you haven't set off from March towards SNA they're liable to beat you to it unless you're bombing on the regular...at which point you have to dig them out of the mountains, stacking limit 40,000, in order to move into SNA. The hex further east is even worse at 20k - plus no roads etc. So...unless you can put troops into SNA from March and hold the associated hexside you're going to have to go through LA anyway - might as well start now as it's never going to get any easier. It's not good, but the alternatives seem worse, if you don't have the ability to get at SD any other way.

[Kofiman]

Attack now. With the way casulties are taken, it's likely you'll only trash at worst one of your own divisions, leaving others to still be in good shape. Forcing a retreat out of the 3x terrain onto a to-be-overstacked hex would collapse his position and eat up all his supply. He can't replace supply, so you want to keep him spending it quickly.

Plus, they get to build field fortifications that can't be reduced while they are sitting in place.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
The 47mm AT gun, as good as Japan gets in her IDs, is available in as many numbers as Lowpe wants it. It starts in 1/42 and has decent stats. Range 2, Effect 3, Pen 64, Accur 16, Anti-armor 52. Good enough to kill Shermans.

I´m not sure here but I do seem to remember not losing a single Sherman in my game vs. Erik. Only disabled but not 1 lost during the entire war. Not that I can remember at least. [:)]

2 US Tank Battalions with Sherman would wreck a Japanese Tank division in x2 terrain. Same with a lone Indian Division. I tested this with Type 3 Medium tanks.

Sherman good. Japan tanks bad.

Or something. (Yes I´m drunk and just watched the last GoT episode!)

Roses, glasses and all that.

[JocMeister]

Shock attacking was never an option so don´t worry guys. [:)]

As I said though I have to do something. While I don´t think there is any real danger to SD I can´t afford to gamble on it. I think we can all agree that not losing SD or LA is my top priority. So that will have to govern what I do.

I think we can all also agree that doing nothing might be good for LA with its UH terrain and 4000 AV. But its not good for SD and its 1200 AV and CLR terrain.

Havn´t decided on anything yet but I will have to shortly.

[JocMeister]

[font="Verdana"]Canada/WC[/font]
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This "invasion force" have been hovering in the area for 3 turns now. I written this off as fake. Still handling this as an invasion is coming though. I have 1 ID at Portland, Seattle and Tacoma each. Another ID is at SF is strat mode ready to reinforce. Also have 4 regiments spread out in various locations. Forts are at 9 at both Seattle and Portland. Tacoma is 8.67. Should reach 9 in 3-4 turns.

No allied air support here though but lots and lots of AA.

[JocMeister]

[font="Verdana"]Final plan[/font]
_____________________________________________________________________________

So I´m almost done with the turn. I decided on a few things.

- An airbridge to SD will be set up from the safety of Las Vegas. Transports and troops will be ready in 5-8 days. 1 Mountain Rgt and a infantry regiment will be first to go.

- I limited strike will be launch towards Santa Ana tomorrow. Some obsolete DBs will be used. The rest of the LBA strike force is currently guarding the possible landing in the North. This includes the 50 TBs. Sweeps will be done by mostly P40s and P39s. But also some P38s as well as the combat debut of the mighty Corsair! Naval wildkittens will provide escort. With its 318 MPH they are not suitable for sweeping anyway.

- I accidently overstacked LA. Only by 2k but I can´t strat mode out. So 2 Motorized divisions will disembark the trains and move for Santa Barbara to destroy the 6th Guards ID. Short of the long walk from March Field to Santa Ana I can´t really go anywhere anyway. Might as well harvest the VPs.

- The attack is ordered for tomorrow at LA. I have 4k AV. I have overflowing pools of US and USMC squads. I have more Lees then I can imagine. I might as well put them to use. Not everything will partake in the attack. The motorized divisions as well as the 2nd Armored ID are still on trains. I´m not really expecting miracles here. This mostly a show of force. Jeff doesn´t know the 2nd Armored is gutted. Seeing 4 Armored divisions, a USMC division and 5 divisions should worry him. Hopefully enough to pull units off the SD attack which is really the main goal. The biggest danger here is more troops arriving from Santa Ana. But I bet the bulk of his forces are moving from Santa Ana towards SD. He must realize LA can never be taken so this is an attempt to block me in LA. A smart move. I would much rather have moved to Santa Ana and attack there with the clear terrain.

- PTs and subs will take a defensive stance for now. Main objective is to protect LA from bombardments. I need the airfield up and running. Engineers will arrive tomorrow.

- 3 divisions will start the long walk from March Field to Santa Ana in 3 days. This will put some pressure on Santa Ana itself and hopefully tie down more Japanese forces slated for the SD attack.

- 2 divisions are held as reserve in Bakersfield and Mojave. Once I get confirmation that the Northern invasion force is fake another 2 divisions will be added to the reserves. They will probably be added to the push from March Field to Santa Ana.

- The powerful 2nd Army Tank Brigade is still off map. Takes forever for them to reach the frontline....

[JocMeister]

[font="Verdana"]Elsewhere[/font]
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Obviously very quiet elsewhere. But not outside Japanese prying eyes...

Pencil has left port and will rendezvous with the fleet in 2 days. Pencil II troops will soon arrive at their pickup destination.

Paper is underway. Troops are moving off trains and boarding ships.

Paperclip is also underway. Troops are being gathered at the departure point.

Considering the Japanese commitment on the WC I expect minimal resistance and the success of all 3 operations. Pencil and Pencil II is the big show.

[JocMeister]

[font="Verdana"]Logistics[/font]
_____________________________________________________________________________

Finally had time to go through this and look through things at OZ/NZ/SOPAC.

Basically losing PH have had very little (none?) effect on the allied ability to keep OZ fueled and supplied.

NZ Fuel: 210k (380k inbound). Supply: 900k.
OZ Fuel: 230k (80k+60k unloading + 110k inbound). Supply: 1,9 million.
SOPAC: Fuel 38k (82k onboard AOs). Supply: 230k.

Offensive operations will not be hindered by fuel and/or supply shortages at least. [:)]

[JocMeister]

Turn sent to Jeff. Hopefully we can get some speed up again. 2-3 days between turns is a bit long for me.

[Rio Bravo]

Jocke-

At this point, do you think there is a chance to eventually trap all those Japanese units on the West Coast and destroy them or do you think that most of the Japanese will eventually be able to extract themselves from the West Coast?

Just curious as to your thoughts on this?

Best Regards,

-Terry

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: Rio Bravo

Jocke-

At this point, do you think there is a chance to eventually trap all those Japanese units on the West Coast and destroy them or do you think that most of the Japanese will eventually be able to extract themselves from the West Coast?

Just curious as to your thoughts on this?

Best Regards,

-Terry

I think if Jeff hadn´t moved to LA there is a good chance he would have lost most of his invasion force. Now its unlikely. Given the x3 terrain at LA there is a very slim chance the Allies can dislodge them and drive for Santa Ana. So very good play on Jeffs part there.

That being said I would be very surprised if he could evacuate without losses. Unless he takes SD and has a good port to load his troops from some losses are bound to be had. Allied armor moves a hex every 2 turns and I doubt he could load up his entire force in 2 turns.

So while loading some elements will probably have to be left behind if it comes to that. We shall see. Jeff played well here by moving for LA. I had hoped he wouldn´t but he saw the danger.

[JocMeister]

Looks like Jeff is up and running the turn.

Hopefully I get the replay soon! [:)]

[JocMeister]

[font="Verdana"]West Coast invasion D+5[/font]
_____________________________________________________________________________

Won´t get the turn until tomorrow so I won´t do a full update until then. Short story: Nothing in the air flew. Guessing weather. Lots of PT combat. No luck. Atago ate a mine.

And then this...

Ground combat at Los Angeles (225,76)

Allied Deliberate attack

Attacking force 71219 troops, 1340 guns, 2979 vehicles, Assault Value = 4098

Defending force 32057 troops, 293 guns, 254 vehicles, Assault Value = 986

Allied adjusted assault: 1227

Japanese adjusted defense: 2561

Allied assault odds: 1 to 2

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), preparation(-), experience(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
1166 casualties reported
Squads: 5 destroyed, 160 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 52 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 7 disabled
Guns lost 31 (1 destroyed, 30 disabled)
Vehicles lost 104 (22 destroyed, 82 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
1401 casualties reported
Squads: 8 destroyed, 82 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 36 disabled
Engineers: 1 destroyed, 14 disabled
Guns lost 58 (9 destroyed, 49 disabled)
Vehicles lost 104 (11 destroyed, 93 disabled)

Assaulting units:
194th Tank Battalion
40th Infantry Division
5th Armoured Division
641st Towed Tank Destroyer Battalion
LA Harbor Defense
2nd Armored Division
4th Motorized Division
13th Armoured Division
3rd Marine Division
8th Motorized Division
6th Armoured Division
7th Motorized Division
41st Infantry Division
Provisional Tank Brigade
165th Field Artillery Battalion
511th Coast AA Regiment
188th Field Artillery Battalion
24th MAG
37th US Naval Construction Battalion
West Coast
Los Angeles USN Base Force
I US Corps
Provisional GMC Grp
21st US Naval Construction Battalion
204th Coast AA Regiment
21st MAG
23rd AA Bde
183rd Field Artillery Battalion
603rd Coast AA Regiment
214th Coast AA Regiment
II USA Corps

Defending units:
9th Division
4th Tank Regiment
1st Division
18th Tank Regiment
2nd Air Defense AA Regiment
3rd Air Defense AA Regiment
3rd Hvy.Artillery Regiment

Even less Japanese troops then I expected. This we can work with. I can recover losses far, far easier then Jeff. This is a really good result. Might even cancel the flanking movement and pour everything I have into this.

Then again. Japanese reinforcements can´t be far off.

[Crackaces]

In response to below ..

My thought is that the IJ have way over extended themselves but it is just not obvious yet
My abstraction of the IJ's situation is there is a limited number of supplies, fuel, oil, industrial points (HI) etc that might be represented together as an abstract product called "operational points".
Look at the AAR's out there where the IJ have run roughshod expanding relentlessly and you see running out of stuff in mid 1945. It is insidious throughout the game but the results become apparent like the Oct 1929 stock crash

So .. the IJ have brought / spent a certain number of operational points to conduct this operation which my thought is to make them spend it .. so much that they bring more
further out away from where the perimeter is defensible. This is an exercise in patience in my opinion. Even with the almost unlimited stuff that the Allies get in 1944 .. it is a huge exercise in logistics to establish and move stuff across the long LOC's/ This is not the Allies .. its the IJ.

Somebody else might comment but entering Santa Anna with enough to tie down forces will have multiple effects .. a few bombardment combat with art/tanks will burn supplies.
I think that is a viable strategy .. make the IJ pay as many "operational" points as possible for futility ...

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

[font="Verdana"]West Coast invasion D+5[/font]
_____________________________________________________________________________

Won´t get the turn until tomorrow so I won´t do a full update until then. Short story: Nothing in the air flew. Guessing weather. Lots of PT combat. No luck. Atago ate a mine.

And then this...

Ground combat at Los Angeles (225,76)

Allied Deliberate attack

Attacking force 71219 troops, 1340 guns, 2979 vehicles, Assault Value = 4098

Defending force 32057 troops, 293 guns, 254 vehicles, Assault Value = 986

Allied adjusted assault: 1227

Japanese adjusted defense: 2561

Allied assault odds: 1 to 2

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), preparation(-), experience(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
1166 casualties reported
Squads: 5 destroyed, 160 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 52 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 7 disabled
Guns lost 31 (1 destroyed, 30 disabled)
Vehicles lost 104 (22 destroyed, 82 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
1401 casualties reported
Squads: 8 destroyed, 82 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 36 disabled
Engineers: 1 destroyed, 14 disabled
Guns lost 58 (9 destroyed, 49 disabled)
Vehicles lost 104 (11 destroyed, 93 disabled)

Assaulting units:
194th Tank Battalion
40th Infantry Division
5th Armoured Division
641st Towed Tank Destroyer Battalion
LA Harbor Defense
2nd Armored Division
4th Motorized Division
13th Armoured Division
3rd Marine Division
8th Motorized Division
6th Armoured Division
7th Motorized Division
41st Infantry Division
Provisional Tank Brigade
165th Field Artillery Battalion
511th Coast AA Regiment
188th Field Artillery Battalion
24th MAG
37th US Naval Construction Battalion
West Coast
Los Angeles USN Base Force
I US Corps
Provisional GMC Grp
21st US Naval Construction Battalion
204th Coast AA Regiment
21st MAG
23rd AA Bde
183rd Field Artillery Battalion
603rd Coast AA Regiment
214th Coast AA Regiment
II USA Corps

Defending units:
9th Division
4th Tank Regiment
1st Division
18th Tank Regiment
2nd Air Defense AA Regiment
3rd Air Defense AA Regiment
3rd Hvy.Artillery Regiment

Even less Japanese troops then I expected. This we can work with. I can recover losses far, far easier then Jeff. This is a really good result. Might even cancel the flanking movement and pour everything I have into this.

Then again. Japanese reinforcements can´t be far off.

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

In response to below ..

My thought is that the IJ have way over extended themselves but it is just not obvious yet
My abstraction of the IJ's situation is there is a limited number of supplies, fuel, oil, industrial points (HI) etc that might be represented together as an abstract product called "operational points".
Look at the AAR's out there where the IJ have run roughshod expanding relentlessly and you see running out of stuff in mid 1945. It is insidious throughout the game but the results become apparent like the Oct 1929 stock crash

So .. the IJ have brought / spent a certain number of operational points to conduct this operation which my thought is to make them spend it .. so much that they bring more
further out away from where the perimeter is defensible. This is an exercise in patience in my opinion. Even with the almost unlimited stuff that the Allies get in 1944 .. it is a huge exercise in logistics to establish and move stuff across the long LOC's/ This is not the Allies .. its the IJ.

Somebody else might comment but entering Santa Anna with enough to tie down forces will have multiple effects .. a few bombardment combat with art/tanks will burn supplies.
I think that is a viable strategy .. make the IJ pay as many "operational" points as possible for futility ...

Very good points. And it also mirrors my own reasoning although I don´t think as "big picture" as you do. [:)]

I can quite easily recover my losses. Supply and support is plentiful. I can also quite easily rotate units in and out. So attrition works in my favor here I think.

Another bonus is that any attack helps my units gain more EXP. Two of the armored IDs only have EXP in their 40s and the same is true for some of the infantry divisions.

Besides. To be honest I can´t really do much else at the moment. Flanking through March field will take time and I´m quite worried about SD.

[poodlebrain]

Flanking through March field will take time and I´m quite worried about SD.

If you are just now starting to move from March Field to Santa Ana, then you are too late. The Japanese most certainly already have units marching from Santa Ana to March Field, and if they get there first that is another hexside they will control in superior defensive terrain. You will be forced to fight your way out of L.A. and March Field against Japanese with good defensive terrain multipliers. You allowed the Japanese to employ economy of forces tying down >3 times their numbers. Meanwhile you will be defending San Diego with no terrain multiplier.

This operation has taught me the value of Rommel's strategy for defending Normandy in comparison to von Runstedt's plan to mass for a decisive counterattack. I'll have to pay more attention to map detail when planning future operations seeking to gain advantages, and prevent disadvantages due to terrain.

[Cap Mandrake]

ORIGINAL: poodlebrain

Flanking through March field will take time and I´m quite worried about SD.

If you are just now starting to move from March Field to Santa Ana, then you are too late. The Japanese most certainly already have units marching from Santa Ana to March Field, and if they get there first that is another hexside they will control in superior defensive terrain. You will be forced to fight your way out of L.A. and March Field against Japanese with good defensive terrain multipliers. You allowed the Japanese to employ economy of forces tying down >3 times their numbers. Meanwhile you will be defending San Diego with no terrain multiplier.

This operation has taught me the value of Rommel's strategy for defending Normandy in comparison to von Runstedt's plan to mass for a decisive counterattack. I'll have to pay more attention to map detail when planning future operations seeking to gain advantages, and prevent disadvantages due to terrain.

Yes..not only that but the hex to the East of March Field is also Mountain. If JJ gets in there they will have an unflankable position with two mountain and one urban hex bordered by the map edge and the sea.

[Cap Mandrake]

On the other hand, the first Allied attack in LA went pretty well. Seems like you grind away with restricted ground units in LA that aren't good for anything else, attack toward Santa Barbara, which seems very vulnerable, win the air battle and then hunker down in SD behind the forts and bomb the crap out the LYB's there.

[Cap Mandrake]

There is also this. Unless the US troops in SD are able to bribe the Federales in TJ...there is no retreat hex. There might be a very large "disturbance in the force" if 1200 US AV's surrender.

This, to me, would suggest a sense of urgency to achieve air superiority.