AE and WitE and WitW

[Dili]

I think game companies at least in historical setups have to think more broadly. For example the game database could be sold, i mean WITP could be one of the best databases about Pacific War in existence.
Currently all that work is only monetized in the game itself.

When i use the editor i just keep thinking that it should have a place to also post notes of research etc...
Related to this another thing might an universal editor for several games where only inputs/outputs are changed.

Also a game release might get a partnership/ advertising with book editors.. Osprey's etc.

[Flicker]

I can't even imagine the complexities in modeling the world map for a global WW2 game. What would the map look like and at what scale? Think of the historical weather database. It would be huge.

[wworld7]

ORIGINAL: Kull

ORIGINAL: wdolson

If you're starting small with the plan to scale up later, there are a lot of things you need to design in from the start. You may not need to build say the naval system into a war on the eastern front game, but you need to have the basic elements in place and the design fairly well mapped out for when you do expand into naval warfare. Otherwise, you need to rip up a lot of the work you did and rewrite it for the next step in the system.

Games are some of the most complex computer programs out there. Microsoft Word is rather simple compared to something like Grand Theft Auto, or even WitP. And Word is so complex Mictosoft gave up on a plan to rewrite the program from scratch 15 years ago.

Bill

As a key guy on the AE team, you would certainly know. But I'm not trying to minimize the difficulty, nor the fact that's it's pretty much inevitable that a modular design will involve a fair amount of rework along the way.

However, a long term revenue stream throughout the total development cycle, will fund levels of inefficiency that normally could not be accommodated. For example:

Battle of Atlantic - At $25 ea, this funds the initial engine development and concepting. The elements themselves - sub warfare and convoys - should be a small enough part of the whole, that the vast mjority of funds goes entirely toward concepting and developing the initial engine.

Expansion 1 (Air) - $12 each to fund the major coding of the air interface. The actual game code is largely search and naval attack, so just a tiny piece of the total.

Expansion 2 (Surface Naval) - Another $12 where you flesh out the code for surface naval engagements

Expansion 3 (Amphibious/Land) - Another $12 and now we've completed a total integration of all elements of the design. Still much more to be done, of course, and if the designers are smart, they will approach this entire exercise as the "entry cost" for building the new engine. Most profits should be reserved for the subsequent games and expansions. Because if you do this part right, "people will come....they will most definitely come"

The next game is primarily focused on the Air War, and it is very likely that the designers will have to rework some of the concepts from Game #1, Expansion #1. But that's OK, because at $25 a pop the funding will be there to do that.

Kull,

I would like to see this game developed. But I think it would take a very long time and cost much more than you expect for development (unless you talking about a loner doing all the coding in his parents basement.)
Simple estimate,18-36 months to program and test the first piece and 12-24 months for each addition. The price would be 2-5 times higher (at a minimum) to support a project this size.
Now if I win 390 billion in PowerBall Saturday night I'll consider funding it. But I am more likely to acquire the rights to Avalon Hill's Third Reich and give that another chance at a computer version (only this time one that WORKS correctly).

[HansBolter]

I think Bruce Harper, who was the lead developer of Advanced Third Reich, must have already acquired the rights as he has since developed a newer version.

I was one of the playtesters of ATR.

I met and played a tournament game against Bruce at Avaloncon in Maryland the year after ATR was released.

Here is the wiki page on ATR:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Third_Reich

Looks like GMT ended up with the rights and published Bruce's revamp that incorporated Empire of the Rising Sun to create the global game A World at War.

[Canoerebel]

I think the next iteration of a WITP:AE might be exactly that - a prodigy working in his parents' basement. The coding probably won't be as complex, but the prodigy will come up with fun things that will make the game highly playable.

I do think there is a small chance that some Matrix-related team gets together, highly encouraged by Matrix and the community, and gins up a WitP:AE II, only because the immense success of this game has to be drawing the attention of these folks. It simply has to be.

Now, from a business standpoint, if AE is still selling well to the residual market that hasn't yet been saturated, then there's not much reason to embark is an umpteen year and effort project that won't generate revenue for umpteen years. That's why I think the prodigy in the basement is the more likely occurrence.

I played and loved A3R and Empire of the Rising Sun (and the cobbled together creation so inartfully called Global War 2000). It's the only other game I've played that drew me as much as AE has. But here's the thing: I haven't played it since the mid 1990s. I wonder if, now that I've been immersed in WitP for a decace, whether A3R/ERS/GWY2K would be as fun as I remember it. I think it would be. The gaming model was alot of fun, the PBEM capabilities were fabulous, and the research and diplomacy were rich and could be made richer.

[wworld7]

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

I think Bruce Harper, who was the lead developer of Advanced Third Reich, must have already acquired the rights as he has since developed a newer version.

I was one of the playtesters of ATR.

I met and played a tournament game against Bruce at Avaloncon in Maryland the year after ATR was released.

Here is the wiki page on ATR:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Third_Reich

Looks like GMT ended up with the rights and published Bruce's revamp that incorporated Empire of the Rising Sun to create the global game A World at War.

Hans,

Thanks, I was aware of this.

I desire the simple old original 3R. I was a beta tester on it, and it KILLED me when it was released too soon, and worse
resources and time ran out to FIX it. I loved that game, and the PC version had very good possibilities. I'm not talking about the
AI, I am specifically talking about the game mechanics/rules working. But with 390 million and a year or two the AI could be improved.

Ah, what dreams are made of...

[Rising-Sun]

I know some of you guys have talent and skills that could help out, chemkid and myself could work on the maps and GUIs. Not sure about the 3D programs for 3D artwork and such.

Yes it can be done. Some of you guys probably want something in return and others willing to help out for free. I would do it for free, as long I get the credits for it. Just want to make this happen someday.

[Kull]

ORIGINAL: flipperwasirish

Kull,

I would like to see this game developed. But I think it would take a very long time and cost much more than you expect for development (unless you talking about a loner doing all the coding in his parents basement.)
Simple estimate,18-36 months to program and test the first piece and 12-24 months for each addition. The price would be 2-5 times higher (at a minimum) to support a project this size.
Now if I win 390 billion in PowerBall Saturday night I'll consider funding it. But I am more likely to acquire the rights to Avalon Hill's Third Reich and give that another chance at a computer version (only this time one that WORKS correctly).

The question is, do you really have to start entirely from scratch? The existing game wouldn't have as many adherents, nor it's long life if not for extensive replay-ability, and the sort of interface that players find attractive (as opposed to computerized cardboard squares). I'm probably oversimplifying, but if the goal was to tack on a more modern interface and modify those portions of the code which don't work so well (subs and land), this might not be quite so daunting. You'd probably also want to "un-hard-code" as much as possible to improve moddability, which would further ensure long life for the replacement product.

Now if the existing code is archaic in some way and would need to be completely rewritten in a different programming language, and that meant the existing code couldn't be used in any way, shape, or form, that probably makes this harder to pull off.

[obvert]

When I found the interview with the Slitherine guys above I was searching for sales numbers for WITP_AE and other Matrix/Slitherine games. While the forum is successful, is the game a money maker still? Is it selling as much as other new titles? How has it sold compared with other games in the genre since release?

These figures not easy to find, and even very mainstream first person shooters and other games marketing to the tens of millions don't reveal sales regularly. The number sold on steam can be found, and they're not complete for anything really, but of course that doesn't help with WITP_AE.

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I do think there is a small chance that some Matrix-related team gets together, highly encouraged by Matrix and the community, and gins up a WitP:AE II, only because the immense success of this game has to be drawing the attention of these folks. It simply has to be.

Well, is it financially successful for Slitherine/Matrix to have an active forum? I just don't know. I'm sure they have a bit of maintenance, storage and moderation cost to keep it going as is. If AE is actually rolling along, selling just enough to new customers to still be profitable, is it worth it to risk making a new one that might not live up to expectations (like WITW). How much is that game losing them?

Now, from a business standpoint, if AE is still selling well to the residual market that hasn't yet been saturated, then there's not much reason to embark is an umpteen year and effort project that won't generate revenue for umpteen years. That's why I think the prodigy in the basement is the more likely occurrence.

Would the prodigy in the basement really be interested in making a new WITP_AE when s/he could make an iPad/Android app that could sell many millions? They'd spend 3-4 years working on something that might be successful for a tiny niche?

The Slitherine guys did say they market to "a largely male demographic of 25-60 year olds" (and I'd put that at 35 and up for this game, really). As they say they're trying to "maximize profits to the developers (and themselves). They realize that the market saturates very quickly, meaning it's a small pool.

Is it profitable to develop a game that the most dedicated gamers play almost exclusively and so only need to ever buy one game? [:D]

Kull's idea is probably the smarter business strategy, and is very much like what other card-based strategy games are doing as well as most strategy games on Steam; expansion packs (and in game purchasing).

This game has the luxury of freely developed "expansions" by michaelm, DBB and other dedicated scenario design and mod makers. What if all of those were paid for expansions? So $30 for DBB-C, $20 for chemkid's maps?

They would have to make something less friendly to independent modders and developers, really. I just think it's too big to do again, and the core forum members would be pretty scathing if it arrived looking like WITW and had no independent modding and everything extra cost $$. [:-]

[Yaab]

And sell a map of whatever island, where the updated WITP:AE manual copy is buried and let the players scramble for it! You can call this game WITP:AE Manualon Go! or something.

[robinsa]

I wonder if using an already existing game engine such as unity3d or similar could shorten the development process? If its the prodigy canoerebel spoke of Im sure this is the route he would take.

[patrickl]

Looks like I have to buy Hearts of Iron 3. Tired of AE.[:)]

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: patrickl

Looks like I have to buy Hearts of Iron 3. Tired of AE.[:)]

Heresy! [:-]

[rustysi]

+1

[CaptBeefheart]

Kickstarter is a relatively risk-free way of approaching WITP2 from the financial side. I reckon a number of us would kick in some funds. Of course, assembling a proper team that could handle the project would be something else.

Cheers,
CC