Bug with setting City Attack from CVs

[Lokasenna]

I noticed this in my game a couple of weeks ago, but couldn't post for opsec reasons. I've loaded up the relevant turns to document.

Summary:
2 CV TFs with a mix of SBD-3, SBD-5, SB2C, and TBF-1 planes on board.

15 hexes away from my intended target, I am able to set City Attack for each group in each TF, if I want to. I don't, as I intend to maneuver a bit more (pic below - Victorious and Yorktown are in separate TFs). I can set all the way out to 18 hexes.

[Lokasenna]

SBDs on the same day, I picked this unit because this is important to the actual results later. Note they can reach out to 17 hexes, which makes sense - their range is a bit less than that of TBFs.

This is my lone SBD-5 unit. It is able to city attack here. When I actually go to set the raid, not even the "trick" to "Set all Carrier-based dive bombers in this hex" that worked on the other DBs in this TF worked on this unit - they remained on stand down. Why??

[Lokasenna]

Here's where the TFs are on the day shown above in the screenshots for the units.

[Lokasenna]

Day 2 - TBFs are still able to set City Attack, and this time out to 26 hexes! This gets me excited.

Same for the SBDs. Only one unit shown below, as they all see the same capability.

[Lokasenna]

This is where the TFs were for the screen shot above. Slightly closer to all of these targets, but why wasn't Singapore on the list the day before if they can now reach to Batavia and 2 hexes farther, to a range of 26, when they were well within 26 hexes of Singapore yesterday?

[Lokasenna]

Next day, when I decide to set target, here's what we've got for my big ol' TBF squadron:



Where'd all the targets go?!?

[Lokasenna]

Here are my SBD-3's in the 1 CV TF that is able to set target. Note that they can reach out to 26 today. OK, fine, same as yesterday. All well and good.

I play around with setting drop tanks on the SB2Cs or not, but it doesn't change what range or targets I'm able to set.

[Lokasenna]

Here's where the TFs are. As you can see, they should be able to attack plenty!

[Lokasenna]

Using "Set all Carrier Dive-bombers in this hex" and for TBs as well, I'm able to get the bugged TF's groups to attack Medan.... except for the SBD-5's, which simply refuse:

[Lokasenna]

So here's the problem. What if I hadn't had the second TF there? I wouldn't have been able to strike at all! What's really irritating is that all groups in both TFs were able to set target just the day before, and the day before that.

Conditions:
Full sorties on the CVs. Full torpedoes.
All ships in both TFs in GREEN endurance

I think there's something funky going on with the code that is looking at movement of the TF + range of the plane to return strike range.

Why was the range on Day 1 only out to 18 hexes or so? Why not the full 26 that I saw on Day 2?

And why, oh why, couldn't an entire TF set a city attack target from the same 15-hex distance on Day 3?


July 8, 1943 turn attached - where I can't set target.

[Lokasenna]

July 7 turn attached, where I can set attack out to 26 hexes.

[Lokasenna]

And July 6 turn attached.

[michaelm75au]

The range used in the calculation is based on the TF potential hex moves plus the range of the aircraft.
Basically a target will show if the strike range is within the TF move plus attack range:

The TF Movement allowance = last phase hex move times 2 times 'days in a cycle'
Thus for each group, if the range to target is less than TF move allowance plus a/c range, it will show up.
In the example above, one TF's groups show city targets while the other TF does not.

The TF remained in the same hex on the 7th. Thus its last turn move was 0 hexes, and thus no TF allowance. The groups in that TF would be limited to targets with the strike range of the a/c themselves.

Whether it should be using some other TF movement value is questionable. If using the cruise/full hex move values, you could cheat by going full speed and then pick targets further away because of the higher allowance.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: michaelm

The range used in the calculation is based on the TF potential hex moves plus the range of the aircraft.
Basically a target will show if the strike range is within the TF move plus attack range:

The TF Movement allowance = last phase hex move times 2 times 'days in a cycle'
Thus for each group, if the range to target is less than TF move allowance plus a/c range, it will show up.
In the example above, one TF's groups show city targets while the other TF does not.

The TF remained in the same hex on the 7th. Thus its last turn move was 0 hexes, and thus no TF allowance. The groups in that TF would be limited to targets with the strike range of the a/c themselves.

Whether it should be using some other TF movement value is questionable. If using the cruise/full hex move values, you could cheat by going full speed and then pick targets further away because of the higher allowance.

I suspected something like that movement allowance, and that makes sense, however both TFs followed the same movement pattern each day.

Was the one TF able to set a strike because it was set to follow, therefore for some reason receiving a TF movement allowance while the TF it was following did not?

[michaelm75au]

I thought it was the following TF that wasn't getting the TF allowance; but it is the TF that didn't move in the previous turn. Which was the leading TF. Seemed to be stationery in same hex for the turn 7 (I think), so on turn 8, the strike range was the a/c range only.
So any TF with 'Remain on station' might have this problem.
Hard to tell sometimes if a TF moved in the previous turn.

I have made a note in the code to see if a better method can be found that doesn't rely on the 'distance moved last turn'.

[witpqs]

It seems like three choices:

A) 'distance moved last turn'

B) TF cruise speed for day (or turn)

C) TF full speed for day (or turn)

All with the planes' ranges added, of course.

I've been mulling it over, thinking about this:
" If using the cruise/full hex move values, you could cheat by going full speed and then pick targets further away because of the higher allowance. "

I think this is missing the point of how would you do it IRL - I presume you would want to get close but out of range, then dash in for the strike and dash out again just as fast as you could.

It seems like option C would be the better way. It shouldn't matter if a TF went at cruise speed (or even less due to refueling!) for the prior 10 days, the range to assign the strike should be based on the planes' ranges plus the TF's full speed for the day or turn.

Consider that the way the game does movement phases the TF will be at its final hex for both daylight phases, and fully subject to enemy air strikes during two phases in that position. Nothing about it smells like cheating to me.

Not sure if I am missing something, but that's how it looks to me at the moment. [:)]

[michaelm75au]

Yes, I have been leaning towards (c) - with the TF expected Full speed hex movement.
I only introduced this originally to give carrier based planes a change to perform some the possible missions that they performed in RL. They don't replace 'strategic' bombers, but do allow for the quick in/out attacks carriers are famous for.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: michaelm

Yes, I have been leaning towards (c) - with the TF expected Full speed hex movement.
I only introduced this originally to give carrier based planes a change to perform some the possible missions that they performed in RL. They don't replace 'strategic' bombers, but do allow for the quick in/out attacks carriers are famous for.

I agree.

A full day's (or turn's) worth of movement + extended range of the planes as a static range for the city attack would be fine, and most importantly it would be static and predictable. You can set port/airfield attack from out of range - if you don't make it to within strike range of the planes, they just don't fly. I don't see why it should be different for City attack.

[crsutton]

But the thread is dated 12/31 and the note is from the patch dated 12/25. That is when michaelm changed it. Were you using the old version or were you possibly using a recent beta where it had already been adjusted? For me, I was never able to do it until I downloaded that patch. I note, that I had the same issue as you with getting all my bombers set to city attack. Eventually, I worked it out. I think I just moved a few hexes inside the maximum run in range and made sure that I had used no OP points and they all set. Ran into Soerajaba and knocked out the entire oil production with a late 1942 raid. Felt so guilty about doing it to my opponent that I have refrained from repeating it. For now. [;)] I will be trying it against aircraft factories in the HI once I get another 10 carriers or so.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: crsutton

But the thread is dated 12/31 and the note is from the patch dated 12/25. That is when michaelm changed it. Were you using the old version or were you possibly using a recent beta where it had already been adjusted? For me, I was never able to do it until I downloaded that patch. I note, that I had the same issue as you with getting all my bombers set to city attack. Eventually, I worked it out. I think I just moved a few hexes inside the maximum run in range and made sure that I had used no OP points and they all set. Ran into Soerajaba and knocked out the entire oil production with a late 1942 raid. Felt so guilty about doing it to my opponent that I have refrained from repeating it. For now. [;)] I will be trying it against aircraft factories in the HI once I get another 10 carriers or so.

This is from before the change. At this point I can't recall which beta, but it is definitely from before.

I also think Michael was doing so many little fixes at this point that he added it in to what he labeled as 12/25 but it was actually after 12/25.


If this were after the change, there'd be no bug with the second TF's bombers not being able to select a target at all, as it would simply be 8 hexes + extended range for the calculation, so targets would be in range - instead of the (distance moved last turn) + extended range calculation.