Clarification of Wynter's post

[gdpsnake]

Wynter,
See my previous post. Corps are either IN or OUT of a city as a player desires during movement. However:

Corps Do NOT have to ENTER a city to detach/absorb factors in/out of UNBESEIGED garrisons or depots. 7.3.3 Nowhere does it say a corps counter must move into/out of a city BUT a corps counter MUST HAVE MOVEMENT POTENTIAL EVEN IF ZERO! 7.3.3 says the act of absorbing/detaching factors does not have a MOVEMENT POINT COST.

Corps entering an area with an enemy corps in the area OR beseiging can not detach/absorb factors because the corps must cease movement and declare an attack! AND even though it costs zero movement points, detaching/absorbing is STILL movement! (Rule 7.3.3. "...there is no movement point cost for this." Again, as above, the rule says movement POINT cost NOT movement cost!

Why? Because an enemy corps beseiging an area IS IN THE AREA, NOT THE CITY and 7.3.7.1 applies.

ALSO, NO corps counter may enter a city that is TOO big for the city to hold the corps counter total factors but the corps counter may still transfer factors in or out of a city, again, assuming movement is available (even zero movement!)

Corps counters are ALWAYS CLEARLY IN an area (placed in the area) or IN the city (placed on top of the city symbol) OR ON top of enemy units on a city symbol (In the city) as a result of seige.
NOTE: Corps ON TOP OF enemy units In a city (Beseiging the city) ARE IN THE AREA, NOT THE CITY! and so one must stop and declare combat 7.3.7.1 (a relieving force battle situation ensues)

NOTE: That in the case of Soapyfrog's "screening" a player may win a field combat against any corps counters/depot garrisons not retreated into the city and, if successful, then beseige the city (that may have already contained a seperate garrison/corps counter and/or had factors/corps/depot garrisons retreated into the city before combat {7.5})! Either way, screening may be too costly!!

Factors are ALWAYS in a city, a corps counter or (up to ten) on a depot in an area (Or city in special case 7.2.2 where the TOTAL value of the city garrison is not exceeded by the COMBINED total of depot garrison, city garrison and corps counter factors IN THE CITY).

So to answer your point, NO, corps do not have to MOVE into/ out of a city to detach/absorb factors (7.3.3) BUT the act costs movement points (of zero) that must be available to the corps counter (i.e. no enemy corps in the area. Enemy could be IN the city but then you could only detach/absorb factors from your friendly depot IN the AREA)

And YES, corps counters MUST be in cities OR areas as allowed/desired by the players controlling the counters BUT THE DETERMINATION IS MADE BY EACH PLAYER IN HIS MOVEMENT PHASE! A PLAYER CAN NOT REDESIGNATE THE POSITION OF HIS CORPS COUNTERS (AREA OR CITY) AT ANY OTHER TIME UNLESS AS A RESULT OF COMBAT!!!

I hope this helps!
Snake

[soapyfrog]

Originally posted by gdpsnake
See my previous post. Corps are either IN or OUT of a city as a player desires during movement. However:

Point me to the place where it says that corps can move into a city outside of 7.5.1.1...

We know they can move OUT, but they cant move IN unless attacked.

[Wynter]

Well, the fact that triggered my mail was that nowhere during movement the rules explicitly state that you _can_ enter the city (except when a corps retires into a city when under attack). I've always played that you can choose to be either in the city our in the area, but since there was a lot of rule-lawyering in that thread, I figured to just needed to point this out. Just to spice up the discussion
I totaly agree with your post, though, no need to worry.

Jeroen.

[soapyfrog]

Okay, I guess I am just not payng attention... *smacks forehead*

This also points in favour of my interpretation of 7.3.3.3.2 IMHO, that a corps "outside" a city may be simultaneously garrisoning it without detaching factors...

But evidently THAT is a can of WORMS!!

[gdpsnake]

Look at rule 7.3.4 MOVEMENT FROM CITIES last sentence: "Moving from a city into its area (or vice-versa) expends no movement points.

Clearly the units mentioned (corps, cossacks, freikorps, and/or guerillas) can move INTO cities.

[soapyfrog]

But it doesn't say you are allowed to move into a city at any point except in 7.5.1.1., only that the cost of such a movement is zero.

In fact 7.3.4 only makes reference to moving out of a city, which actually seems to imply that the only way a corps/freikorps/cossack etc could find itself in a city is due to some action outside the movement phase, e.g. retirement due to enemy corps in the combat step.

[gdpsnake]

Sorry soapy,
The rule clearly says "Movement from a city into its area (or vice-versa) costs no movement points.

VICE-VERSA MEANS the opposite!!!!

So it means movement from the area into its city!!!!!!!

MOVEMENT not combat and it costs zero movement points. Movement points (even zero) are only expended in the movement phase - never combat!

I think this is the smoking gun in my opinion. But heck, it's still only opinion. We need more folks to chime in. See how many 'hanging chads' we get!

SNAKE

[soapyfrog]

The vice-versa is clearly in reference only to the cost of such a move. Only place you are allowed to specifically move a corps entirely within a city is 7.5.1.1.

[gdpsnake]

Soapyfrog,
Then how do you explain 13.1.1.1? Corps set up in cities!!
Or 14.1.4.1.4?? Corps SET up in cities!!
OR,how can you say: "The vice-versa is clearly in reference only to the cost of such a move."
And then deny that such a MOVE is possible? Rule section 7.3 is MOVEMENT rules. Rule section 7.5 is COMBAT RULES both under the heading of 7.0 LAND PHASE.
7.3.4 is a movement rule and has NOTHING to do with combat so CLEARLY a player can move corps INTO cities during HIS MOVEMENT PHASE!

I strongly disagree with the idea that the only way a corps can get into a city is via combat. Heck, if it could go into a city during combat, why not during movement? AND there are good reasons to have corps in cities irrespective of combat.

Why allow corps to set up in cities at the start of a game? Why even mention it since no one's even had a combat? Heck, they'd all be set up in areas to start! WHY IS IT MENTIONED IN THE SETUP IF THEY CAN ONLY BE IN A CITY AS A RESULT OF COMBAT RETREAT 7.5.1.1?

I think you should reconsider your play.
SNAKE

[soapyfrog]

Originally posted by gdpsnake
I strongly disagree with the idea that the only way a corps can get into a city is via combat. Heck, if it could go into a city during combat, why not during movement? AND there are good reasons to have corps in cities irrespective of combat.

What reasons are those? If a corps can automatically be garrisoning the city at all times what's the bother? Why would you want to have to think about moving corps in and out of cities unless you were forced to do so by enemy action?

Why do you want to add confusion and complexity to the rules? It's difficult enough for most players to remember to distinguish between depot and city garrisons without adding all this craziness.

[gdpsnake]

SOAPYFROG,
That's the whole point. A corps can't automatically garrison a city from the area. If the city is empty my cossack can move right by your corps in the area, enter , garrison and take control of the city.
SNAKE

[soapyfrog]

But I'm saying it can, so your cossack can't do the ridiculous thing you describe (note I don't think your trick is clever, just nonsensical).

General: "Somebody stop those cossacks! They're riding into the city!"

Staff Officer: "Sorry sir our troops couldn't fit simultaneously through the gates of the city, so we could not mount any sort of guard. Gee you should have written more specific orders!"

General: "I'm sorry I'm going to have to shoot you"

Staff Officer: "That's alright I quite understand"

*BANG*

General: "what a senseless waste of human life..."

Do you really want that on your concience?

[gdpsnake]

SOAPYFROG,
Good one! Yes the staff officer SHOULD BE SHOT because he didn't assign any soldiers to garrison duty!

Of course, they wouldn't find out until many days later after the cossacks raped, pillaged, burned and raped some more, burned the ships in port, raped the sailors, and then left or closed the gates and thumbed their noses at your assaulting army arriving too late to prevent more rape of course! LOL!

Also, only the fortress cities had walls the rest were 'open' and without soldiers to protect, the populace is certainly not going to resist (or they get raped!) And most fortress cities without a garrison would just open the gates anyway to avoid reprisals - they don't know how big the force is/ This could just be an advance guard!

Family in city: "Hurry hide the girls in the cellar the cossacks are coming!"
"Where the hell are our troops?"
"The **** general took all of them to be in his army and left us defenseless!"
"They're camped somewhere, let's send messengers!"
"They'll never get back with help in time! The cossacks are here!"
Cossack: "Who wants to be raped first?"
Family: "You'll be sorry when our army arrives!"
Cossack: "By that time I'll be finished raping, looting and burning and be long gone! So who's first again?"

You seem to assume (as I don't) that a corps in an area is camped by the city gates. They might, but I assume they could be anywhere in a thousand square miles away from the city or else they would be camped IN/NEXT to the city (represented in games terms as being IN the city) OR they are not in close proximity (more than a days march away and represented by being in the area! You choose which in your movement phase.

The player with the irregular unit then chooses his unit to be in close proximity of the city (ENTER the ungarrisonned city) in his movement phase by avoiding your forces more than a day's march away (Irregular units don't have to stop!)

If you say your corps is "EVERYWHERE" in the area and in the city then how could enemy irregular units pass right by?! What they have a pass?!

Bottom line, garrison with factors or corps in a city or with factors on a depot or lose it!

GARRISON OR DIE!

SNAKE

[Chiteng]

Sounds like GDPsnake wants to seriously weaken any attempt
at defence. The rules clearly state that (except for cossacks and friekorp) Movement STOPS when entering an area with an
unbesieged enemy corp in it. It does not say 'after occupying all cities.

Frankly I dont see the point of the discussion.

The game is ALREADY challenging. Without throwing even more SOP to France.