Tank Production - Japan

[oaltinyay]

Totally agree, I'm pumping them into the PI now ( it's late 43 and Derek has taken a huge gamble ) and they die like flies.

However they did overran most of Australia in early war.

I had more luck with mobile infatry units but marginally more so. They have a wee bit more staying power.

Maybe next RA features a land unit mod where IJA decides to produce licensed copies of Panzer IIIJ-L-N-M and IV G & H, with some Marder like TD units. Now that'll be interesting.

...actually I'm playing as japanese in RA and only thing that I can not manage is that land offensive because when IJA comes up against a decently armored opponent it stops in its tracks.

[Alpha77]

250 veh is already quite high imho.... also what Dutch airframe factories are there to capture and what have air facs to do with veh facs ? [&:]

[rustysi]

also what Dutch airframe factories are there to capture and what have air facs to do with veh facs ?

Its a mod or player designed scenario I believe. Although in the game captured air facs become veh facs IIRC.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: Alpha77

250 veh is already quite high imho....

It's barely high enough for Scenario 2, and this seems to be a slightly bulked up mod compared to that - at least in terms of armor and it being around much earlier than in even scen 2. The 250 he already has may very well not be enough, as evidenced by his Tracker chart showing him to be behind for the next...what was it, year?

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

Aren't Shermans available beginning in 12/42? I know the unit's TOE has to have them also, but they ARE around in some units prior to June 1944...

Plus, in Burma they're fighting Commonwealth and Indian units with their 75 anti-hard rating. They're performing admirably.

Well in good defensive terrain they are strong enough but then again, are they really any better than a comparable infantry unit in the same place? Early war yes but I think Allied squad AT values negate much of their staying power from 1943 on. Shermans come in around 12/42 at 24 a month so it will take you a good half year to fill out your units.

[KenchiSulla]

The tank units have two advantages, especially in the Japanese army

- They are mobile: This means that under the right circumstances they can act as a firebrigade...
- They are decent anti tank units, Japanese infantry anti tank is lacking....

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: KenchiSulla

The tank units have two advantages, especially in the Japanese army

- They are mobile: This means that under the right circumstances they can act as a firebrigade...
- They are decent anti tank units, Japanese infantry anti tank is lacking....

The second point I think is more important, although thus far I think I've mostly been fighting infantry with mine.

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

ORIGINAL: KenchiSulla

The tank units have two advantages, especially in the Japanese army

- They are mobile: This means that under the right circumstances they can act as a firebrigade...
- They are decent anti tank units, Japanese infantry anti tank is lacking....

The second point I think is more important, although thus far I think I've mostly been fighting infantry with mine.

Just barely decent but I don't know how much resources tanks cost over Japanese infantry. I don't know Japanese production costs.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: crsutton

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

ORIGINAL: KenchiSulla

The tank units have two advantages, especially in the Japanese army

- They are mobile: This means that under the right circumstances they can act as a firebrigade...
- They are decent anti tank units, Japanese infantry anti tank is lacking....

The second point I think is more important, although thus far I think I've mostly been fighting infantry with mine.

Just barely decent but I don't know how much resources tanks cost over Japanese infantry. I don't know Japanese production costs.

Well, just off of load cost... Type 1 tanks are load 11, and 1943 IJA squads are load 17. So without checking the specifics, I would assume the squads are actually more expensive. It's kind of apples/oranges though.

[US87891]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
Well, just off of load cost... Type 1 tanks are load 11, and 1943 IJA squads are load 17. So without checking the specifics, I would assume the squads are actually more expensive. It's kind of apples/oranges though.

Tanks and vehicles and such have an actual load cost which is a multiple of their load cost in the database.

Matt

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: US87891

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
Well, just off of load cost... Type 1 tanks are load 11, and 1943 IJA squads are load 17. So without checking the specifics, I would assume the squads are actually more expensive. It's kind of apples/oranges though.

Tanks and vehicles and such have an actual load cost which is a multiple of their load cost in the database.

Matt

So do squads.

I looked it up in the interest of not remaining vague. I had to resort to a google/forum search because the manual is obtuse on the matter of the supply cost of replacements (it's not in the obvious sections I checked first, but I know it's in there somewhere). The supply cost of taking a replacement is its load cost, so a tank only costs 11 supplies compared to the infantry's 17.

For producing each of those devices...
It costs 11 Vehicle points and 11 Manpower to make each tank. This is 66 HI.
It costs 17 Armaments points and 17 Manpower to make each squad. This is 102HI.

So it's cheaper to make and replace a tank than it is to make and replace a squad. I just had to check to make sure that squad-type devices weren't cheaper than their load cost.

[PaxMondo]

True, but you have more ARM than VEH pts typically.

[Lowpe]

Some of you guys think that IJA tanks are worthless are nuts....you can't use them unsupported, but they are great for several reasons:

1. mobile firebrigade to shore up defenses until more foot & artillery arrives
2. as AT vehicles...very important
3. can dig in in non base terrain much faster than artilley provided there are troops there
4. are not targeted until last by naval bombardments (incredibly valuable...even lousy armored car units...get them with plenty of other units on an atoll behind level 5 forts and watch them hold the atoll).
5. In combat mode, with other units (especially larger units) generally survive aerial bombing in good shape
6. Against the Chinese
7. Mobile, mobile, mobile.

Having said that, I don't know about having over 325 points allocated to their manufacture, but it is a mod I am not up to speed on.[:)]

I would watch my supply closely...

Ok, back to my games...[;)]

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Some of you guys think that IJA tanks are worthless are nuts....you can't use them unsupported, but they are great for several reasons:

1. mobile firebrigade to shore up defenses until more foot & artillery arrives
2. as AT vehicles...very important
3. can dig in in non base terrain much faster than artilley provided there are troops there
4. are not targeted until last by naval bombardments (incredibly valuable...even lousy armored car units...get them with plenty of other units on an atoll behind level 5 forts and watch them hold the atoll).
5. In combat mode, with other units (especially larger units) generally survive aerial bombing in good shape
6. Against the Chinese
7. Mobile, mobile, mobile.

Having said that, I don't know about having over 325 points allocated to their manufacture, but it is a mod I am not up to speed on.[:)]

I would watch my supply closely...

Ok, back to my games...[;)]

Possibly so, but they really have no offensive value as they can't win an attack vs any good morale unit save the Chinese. Mobility is nice but you only need so many mobile units when on the defensive. My point is that I hate Japanese tank units until 1/43. After that I give them little thought as I can defeat them as easily as any infantry unit. It is not that they have no value. My question was does it pay to constantly rebuild them? Most games do not go deep into 1944 so very few Japanese players give enough thought to the end game where resources become just as important as units or aircraft. Mobility is also a two edged sword as a defeated mobile unit that retreats through or into woods can be run down by infantry that actually move faster in that type of terrain.

I do think they have great value on atolls though.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

True, but you have more ARM than VEH pts typically.

Well, the cost of ARM/VEH is the same... so you can have however much you want of each, in the long run [;)]. I know I do.

ORIGINAL: crsutton

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Some of you guys think that IJA tanks are worthless are nuts....you can't use them unsupported, but they are great for several reasons:

1. mobile firebrigade to shore up defenses until more foot & artillery arrives
2. as AT vehicles...very important
3. can dig in in non base terrain much faster than artilley provided there are troops there
4. are not targeted until last by naval bombardments (incredibly valuable...even lousy armored car units...get them with plenty of other units on an atoll behind level 5 forts and watch them hold the atoll).
5. In combat mode, with other units (especially larger units) generally survive aerial bombing in good shape
6. Against the Chinese
7. Mobile, mobile, mobile.

Having said that, I don't know about having over 325 points allocated to their manufacture, but it is a mod I am not up to speed on.[:)]

I would watch my supply closely...

Ok, back to my games...[;)]

Possibly so, but they really have no offensive value as they can't win an attack vs any good morale unit save the Chinese. Mobility is nice but you only need so many mobile units when on the defensive. My point is that I hate Japanese tank units until 1/43. After that I give them little thought as I can defeat them as easily as any infantry unit. It is not that they have no value. My question was does it pay to constantly rebuild them? Most games do not go deep into 1944 so very few Japanese players give enough thought to the end game where resources become just as important as units or aircraft. Mobility is also a two edged sword as a defeated mobile unit that retreats through or into woods can be run down by infantry that actually move faster in that type of terrain.

I do think they have great value on atolls though.

I do think the IJA tank units are far less important once they can no longer conduct offensives, but that says more about the quality of the Allied devices they are facing than anything else. The difference between fighting 1942 Allied units and 1944 Allied units is at least an order of magnitude.

[rustysi]

You are talking apples and oranges here.

This is wrong.

It costs 17 Armaments points and 17 Manpower to make each squad. This is 102HI.

Top of p234 in the manual.

"When a non-vehicle weapon or squad is required to fill out or replace a ground unit element
armament points are expended. 1 armament point and manpower points equal to the load cost
of the squad will be expended from their pools for each squad. For weapons, armament points
and manpower points will be expended equal to the load cost of the device."

The cost for a squad is only 1 armament point plus the stated manpower points, in the above case 17. So a squad costs 6 HI, not 102.

The cost for the armor is correct as stated.

So its obvious armor is quite a bit more expensive than flesh, as it should be. That may be crude, but its a fact.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: rustysi

You are talking apples and oranges here.

This is wrong.

It costs 17 Armaments points and 17 Manpower to make each squad. This is 102HI.

Top of p234 in the manual.

"When a non-vehicle weapon or squad is required to fill out or replace a ground unit element
armament points are expended. 1 armament point and manpower points equal to the load cost
of the squad will be expended from their pools for each squad. For weapons, armament points
and manpower points will be expended equal to the load cost of the device."

The cost for a squad is only 1 armament point plus the stated manpower points, in the above case 17. So a squad costs 6 HI, not 102.

The cost for the armor is correct as stated.

So its obvious armor is quite a bit more expensive than flesh, as it should be. That may be crude, but its a fact.

I knew it, but forgot it. I've called people out on this before, but couldn't find the threads where I did so [:'(]. To be honest, I don't worry about it. HI is never going to be the choke point for me.

Tanks more expensive in HI, cheaper in supplies since their load cost is lower.

[rustysi]

To be honest, I don't worry about it. HI is never going to be the choke point for me.

Tanks more expensive in HI, cheaper in supplies since their load cost is lower.

Hey, to each their own. I too like to play around with my Asian Panzer Corps.[:D]

[GetAssista]

There is one thing that bothers me most with IJA tank regiments - they are obnoxiously slow at getting more experience, to the point of possible bug.

I had a perfect test in the AI game where all the available mobile forces were sieging SF. After couple months of large-scale fighting all IDs and armored divs emerged with 90+ xp. A dozen of tank regiments all remained in the 50s and low 60s. It's not like they had extensive losses, and they took part in roughly twice more fights than each ID, because they R&R so quick. Yet..

[Yaab]

Check in Tracker if their unit IDs are higher than inf/tank divisions. I guess units with lower IDs are targeted first in land combats, thus higher exp gains for them.