Hi
I’m interested to know your opinion about the difference between Steel Panthers- World at War, Steel Panthers: World War II and the first version of Panzer General. I haven’t played any of these games or any other similar war games, so I would appreciate any information and opinion you could give me.
I’ve read the Steel Panthers- World at War review over at Gamesdomain. Was that the first version of SPWAW they reviewed and have the bugs mentioned been fixed?
Cheers
SPWAW-SPWW2-Panzer General - need your opinion
Moderator: MOD_SPWaW
SPWAW-SPWW2-Panzer General - need your opinion
vonOben
“Wer den Tod fürchtet, hat das Leben verloren.” /Johann Gottfried Seume
“Wer den Tod fürchtet, hat das Leben verloren.” /Johann Gottfried Seume
Ok..that Games Domain review is very old and I think it's the very first version they tried. Lots of things have changed since that and most if not all bugs mentioned in that article have been fixed.
Oh, AI probably is still predictable to a degree although clever scenario design can still cause you real troubles even against AI. And if my memory serves me there are still some odd bugs in the random long campaigns but as I don't play them i'm not sure...do a forum search on the topic and you surely find some info.
SPWAW and SPWW2 are perhaps like the two sides of the same coin. SPWAW is a standalone game that runs well on windows systems. SPWW2 is an addon to the old SP1 and SP2 games and you have to have either of them to play SPWW2. And it being a DOS based you may have some difficulties getting it run on windows machine. I don't currently play SPWW2 so I suggest you visit their website to get more details. They are similar, but due to different design approach quite different at the same time.
Panzer General on the other hand is a 'Beer and Pretzels' game, imho. I had fun with it when it came out but it didn't have that lasting power. Now if you have played PG and then move to either one of these SP games don't expect to do well..the depth and detail in the SP games is totally different than the light strategy of PG games.
Just my opinions...
Voriax
Oh, AI probably is still predictable to a degree although clever scenario design can still cause you real troubles even against AI. And if my memory serves me there are still some odd bugs in the random long campaigns but as I don't play them i'm not sure...do a forum search on the topic and you surely find some info.
SPWAW and SPWW2 are perhaps like the two sides of the same coin. SPWAW is a standalone game that runs well on windows systems. SPWW2 is an addon to the old SP1 and SP2 games and you have to have either of them to play SPWW2. And it being a DOS based you may have some difficulties getting it run on windows machine. I don't currently play SPWW2 so I suggest you visit their website to get more details. They are similar, but due to different design approach quite different at the same time.
Panzer General on the other hand is a 'Beer and Pretzels' game, imho. I had fun with it when it came out but it didn't have that lasting power. Now if you have played PG and then move to either one of these SP games don't expect to do well..the depth and detail in the SP games is totally different than the light strategy of PG games.
Just my opinions...
Voriax
Oh God give Me strength to accept those things I cannot change with a firearm!
Hi Voriax
I got the impression that SPWW2 was a complete game.
Quote:
"SPWW2 is offered as a free download for all wargaming enthusiasts and can be played as enhancement to the original Steel Panthers and Steel Panthers: Modern Battles or stand-alone without the purchased product."
"Panzer General on the other hand is a 'Beer and Pretzels' game, imho. I had fun with it when it came out but it didn't have that lasting power."
Could you please explain that some more?
Cheers
I got the impression that SPWW2 was a complete game.
Quote:
"SPWW2 is offered as a free download for all wargaming enthusiasts and can be played as enhancement to the original Steel Panthers and Steel Panthers: Modern Battles or stand-alone without the purchased product."
"Panzer General on the other hand is a 'Beer and Pretzels' game, imho. I had fun with it when it came out but it didn't have that lasting power."
Could you please explain that some more?
Cheers
vonOben
“Wer den Tod fürchtet, hat das Leben verloren.” /Johann Gottfried Seume
“Wer den Tod fürchtet, hat das Leben verloren.” /Johann Gottfried Seume
Well, apparently they have changed their game. When I played WW2 it needed SP1 or 2. But then, that was before SPWAW was published. After that I've had no need to go back to SPWW2. Ive looked at their webpage now and then but that's it.
Hmm..You know the term 'Beer & pretzels' game? It's usually attached to games that don't need 'deep' consideration of every move, a 'light' game. for example, in PG you have infantry units of various strength, tanks, cannons and planes. But the number of units is rather small. And when you do battle it's basially comparing attack and defence values, rolling a dice and looking from a table who wins. Pretty much like in tabletop games.
Mind you, PG was quite succesfull game and because it was a wargame that didn't have a screen full of tactical symbols it appealed to larger public and probably converted quite a few people into wargamers.
Just that compared to SPWAW or even the original Steel Panthers it is a much simpler game.
Voriax
Hmm..You know the term 'Beer & pretzels' game? It's usually attached to games that don't need 'deep' consideration of every move, a 'light' game. for example, in PG you have infantry units of various strength, tanks, cannons and planes. But the number of units is rather small. And when you do battle it's basially comparing attack and defence values, rolling a dice and looking from a table who wins. Pretty much like in tabletop games.
Mind you, PG was quite succesfull game and because it was a wargame that didn't have a screen full of tactical symbols it appealed to larger public and probably converted quite a few people into wargamers.
Just that compared to SPWAW or even the original Steel Panthers it is a much simpler game.
Voriax
Oh God give Me strength to accept those things I cannot change with a firearm!
PG is a good game... it's even a decent sim... however, you have to understand what a sim can mean. A Sim can be a detailed, highly realistic operation--for example, SP:WAW. (And trust me, vonOben, it's worth the download even if you're on dialup and you have to wait a month with GetRight to get it.)
A Sim can also be a symbolic approach to the problem that abstractly "sim"ulates the subject matter and arrives at a useful end result. Panzer General is like that.
SP:WAW: ATG fires at a tank. Range and angles are determined, hit probabilities are checked, penetration is checked, and the end result is that the tank is punctured, the crew bails out. It takes 5 turns for the crew to get back in, in which time they've lost a man and find out that the main gun is destroyed... but the rest of the tank platoon has killed an ATG or two.
End result: Tank platoon is emasculated with the loss of a functioning member (or two, more likely). ATG unit is bloodied, but still effective.
PG: Tank unit is one hex away from ATG unit, and attacks ATG. (In PG, units can only attack adjacent units--except artillery, which can all fire 3 and only 3 hexes.) Initiatives are determined, and usually the ATG fires first. ATG's Hard Attack value is compared to the tank's Ground Defense value. Add a little randomness, and the tank takes some "casualties," making it less effective. The tank can then try to attack the ATG, and uses it's Soft Attack Value against the ATG's Ground Defense value. Maybe a couple ATG guys are killed too.
End Result: Tank platoon is emasculated with the loss of a good 1/3-1/2 of it's effective points/size. ATG unit is bloodied, losing a point or two, but still effective.
Play PG if you want to gloss over the subject matter (which is FINE!! to do!!). Play SP:WAW if you want to get in-depth. ... And not see your family for days.
A Sim can also be a symbolic approach to the problem that abstractly "sim"ulates the subject matter and arrives at a useful end result. Panzer General is like that.
SP:WAW: ATG fires at a tank. Range and angles are determined, hit probabilities are checked, penetration is checked, and the end result is that the tank is punctured, the crew bails out. It takes 5 turns for the crew to get back in, in which time they've lost a man and find out that the main gun is destroyed... but the rest of the tank platoon has killed an ATG or two.
End result: Tank platoon is emasculated with the loss of a functioning member (or two, more likely). ATG unit is bloodied, but still effective.
PG: Tank unit is one hex away from ATG unit, and attacks ATG. (In PG, units can only attack adjacent units--except artillery, which can all fire 3 and only 3 hexes.) Initiatives are determined, and usually the ATG fires first. ATG's Hard Attack value is compared to the tank's Ground Defense value. Add a little randomness, and the tank takes some "casualties," making it less effective. The tank can then try to attack the ATG, and uses it's Soft Attack Value against the ATG's Ground Defense value. Maybe a couple ATG guys are killed too.
End Result: Tank platoon is emasculated with the loss of a good 1/3-1/2 of it's effective points/size. ATG unit is bloodied, losing a point or two, but still effective.
Play PG if you want to gloss over the subject matter (which is FINE!! to do!!). Play SP:WAW if you want to get in-depth. ... And not see your family for days.
Well, those are two different scales. In SPWAW you fight for control of one city or a few villages. In PG a village takes no more than one hex of space!
I've only played Panzer General 2, not the original PG.
In PG2 artillery has a range of 3 or 4. Tanks have ranges of 1 or 2. (The German long 75mm guns of '42 are the first "range 2" tanks, for your information)
I've only played Panzer General 2, not the original PG.
In PG2 artillery has a range of 3 or 4. Tanks have ranges of 1 or 2. (The German long 75mm guns of '42 are the first "range 2" tanks, for your information)
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mjpatterson
- Posts: 15
- Joined: Thu Mar 20, 2003 6:32 am
- Location: Florida
PG2
Being new to SPWaW myself, I must say that the main difference to me is the "depth" of SP vs PG2. As mentioned earlier in this thread, in PG2 the armor has a max range of 2 hexes (later in the war) all infantry have 1 range, AD units vary from 1 to 4 and aty form 2 to 6, it really depends on which equipment file you use. It is a great game that you will get addicted to. I've just played it for so long that I needed a change. I have played PG2 for nearly 5 years, and in the last 18 months or so, the game has come a long way, as far as add ons. There are hundreds of user made maps, campaigns, scenarios and recently someone "modified" the code so that 2000 units and icons can be used. It is 100 times better than the original PG, but still not the game SP is. After reading in this forum for literally weeks, the games have some things in common. They have dedicated players, many user made "tools" for map making, icon making, equipment file making, etc. I must say though, that if you want the "ultimate" challenge and control of every aspect of your units, then SP is the game of choice.
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Klinkenhoffen
- Posts: 245
- Joined: Thu Jan 30, 2003 10:04 am
Download
It took me 32 hours to download SPWAW via a dial up modem and Getright over several nights.
It is well worth the time though.
Klinkenhoffen
It is well worth the time though.
Klinkenhoffen
It's all gone horribly wrong !
VonOben,
I haven't played PG so I can't comment on it.
Spwaw is a windows based game and plays pretty much bug free on all window systems.
Spww2 is a DOS based game and has some problems with setup on some Window systems. Certain video cards and sound cards can cause you problems (why I don't play it now, but enjoyed it before I upgraded computers).
There are large support groups for both games, so you can try either one or both and get lots of help.
Also for Spwaw there is another MOD that is called SpwawH2H (or just H2H) and in a lot of minds this is a much improved version of SPWAW.
If you have a really slow connection, you might talk someone into burning you a CD and sending the complete game to you. I've done this a few times and might would consider it.
Whichever version of SP you chose, I'm sure you will not be sorry.
Cheers,
Rebelbug
I haven't played PG so I can't comment on it.
Spwaw is a windows based game and plays pretty much bug free on all window systems.
Spww2 is a DOS based game and has some problems with setup on some Window systems. Certain video cards and sound cards can cause you problems (why I don't play it now, but enjoyed it before I upgraded computers).
There are large support groups for both games, so you can try either one or both and get lots of help.
Also for Spwaw there is another MOD that is called SpwawH2H (or just H2H) and in a lot of minds this is a much improved version of SPWAW.
If you have a really slow connection, you might talk someone into burning you a CD and sending the complete game to you. I've done this a few times and might would consider it.
Whichever version of SP you chose, I'm sure you will not be sorry.
Cheers,
Rebelbug
"A government big enough to give you everything you want is a government big enough to take from you everything you have."<br />- Gerald Ford