MUST HAVE Japanese planes

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: Alpha77

ASFAIK the IJN only gets a few recon and tranport units, so I did not assign any urgency to these builds, am I wrong? Tina also has low capacity but good range, however just like Babs a plane I would not produce..but I alsolike a bit of streamlining and try to safe on supplies.

There are few transport and recon units early on, yes. A few more arrive later. Because of their maximum load, the Tabby and Emily transports are must-haves. They provide you with so much more flexibility. The Emily carries the most in the game except for the C-54 Skymaster (or whatever it is), but you will need the Tabby for any transport missions inland (with no shore). The IJAAF transports can all do that instead, but maybe you want the 9000-something max load of the Tabby rather than the 3000-something max load of the KAI Helen for something or other.

[rustysi]

You might need a few for a while, but you definitely want Tabby over Tina when you can get Tabby.

Agreed, but the Tabby doesn't arrive for a rather long time. IIRC Japan gets two 27 plane Tina units. One at start and one later. I only build enough for these plus a few spares. Once the Tabby becomes available it'll take over.

Tina also has low capacity

Most Japanese transports have a low capacity. Usually one supply point, later you get some that are better. The Tabby and Emily being the best. Just checked the game, all Japanese transports have a capacity of one supply point except the Tabby and Emily.

[Shark7]

And another question:

Taking ALL things into consideration which is better Sally or Helen?

And by all things, I mean engine production, durability, usability, etc.

Does it even matter with these two? I am truly undecided still.

[GetAssista]

ORIGINAL: Shark7
Taking ALL things into consideration which is better Sally or Helen?
And by all things, I mean engine production, durability, usability, etc.
Does it even matter with these two? I am truly undecided still.

Is there any a question? Armor + 1 more hex of range + more defensive guns = Helen. You might even be able to get Helen-IIb earlier than Sally-IIb because of the handy chain of research
You might have problems with Ha-34 in the scenarios where Tojo uses same engine if you overproduce the fighter, but that's what planning is for.

[rustysi]

They are indeed very similar. In fact the Sally that is in production at the start of the game is slightly better than the first Helen. The only reason to produce the first Helen is that it'll eventually get the 'Mad' device to aid in ASW. From what's been said about that apparatus I don't bother and continue to produce the Sally. The last two Helen's have armor and the last has some defensive armament that includes HMG's. I don't expect to shoot down any attacking fighters, but maybe I can through their aim off.

So I produce some of the second Helen and then concentrate on the third. The next Japanese bomber in the line is the Peggy, but I think by the time you get these most Japanese bombers are just 'grist for the mill'. I'll make sure I have some of the torpedo variant and some others just to have a 'fleet in being' so to speak.

Oh, another thing I just thought of, the engine on the Helen is the Ha-34. This is important as things are different depending which scenario you are playing. In scenario 1 the only other plane that uses that engine is the Tojo, this is fine as I produce large amounts of Tojo's. In scenario 2 the Tojo uses a different engine type, you'd have to ask the Dev's why. So, that being said the Helen uses an engine that is used by no other plane that I know of, and that may not make it worth it. As to variant scenarios, I have no idea.

So there's my .02 (and then some) for what its worth.

[Shark7]

I think its going to come down to engines as the deciding factor on this one. As you pointed out, only 2 aircraft series use the Ha-34, the Tojo and the Helen. Now I produce a moderate amount of Tojo's until the Tony or Frank come into play, so that would actually free up more engines for bombers when that point occurs.

On the other hand, the Sally uses the Ha-32, which does have a nice production to start with, but also has far more new aircraft types using it mid war. So it really becomes a question of do I keep an older bomber in production using engines that will be far more useful on later aircraft, or convert over to the only slightly better bomber that uses a much less in demand engine?

Unless anyone else has a persuasive argument the other way, I'm leaning to the Helen being the better choice based on production limitations. Save the Ha-32s for (looking on the Scenario 1 list) Betty, Frances, B6N2 Jill, Emily, etc...seems to me that the early production of the Sally would just take away very much needed engines in the end game.

[rustysi]

Or, you may look at it this way. The only other A/C at start that needs the Ha-32 is the Betty, the others come into production later. Also you probably won't need large production runs of most of the other models. For example, Emily's ~150, tops. Others into maybe a few hundred to 1k. Produce the Sally only as needed early along with the Betty. You may only need ~100 more than you have until the Helen can take over. Of course this depends on how you use and lose your bombers. In the meantime you could increase Ha-32 production to accommodate current and future needs, as well as increasing Ha-34 up to anticipated levels. This may or may not include enough engines to get an excess of 500 to give you increased R&D of the models in the chain that you wish to bring to market earlier. That of course is a player decision.

BTW I realize there are other A/C early on that use this engine (Ha-32), but these are either extremely small production or non-production runs, at least for myself. Just some more food for thought.

[Shark7]

Well, I'm actually at 10/42 in my current game, and I've still got the Sally in production, I just never increased it. I'm just at the point now of really deciding that having 2 bombers that do exactly the same thing with essentially the same stats isn't making sense. Be better off to decide on one of them and go all in.

I pretty much do what all players do as far as IJN production, but the Sally vs Helen question was one I never really answered. Basically I punted on it by not increasing production rates of either (instead concentrating on the Nell/Betty production). Which honestly made sense considering that I do use the Nell/Betty groups a lot, while the IJA bomber groups get relegated to China/Burma area where there is a lot less resistance in the early game.

Anyway, I was really looking for some one else's opinion on the matter to give me a better perspective, which you have done quite well. [:)]

[Anthropoid]

Great thread. Thanks to Mindmessing for linking to it [:)]

Someone should draw up a gigantic Japan "tech tree."

[ny59giants]

Bump... need it easier to find as I adjust production now that I'm near end of May 42.

[Lokasenna]

Ctrl+D [:D]

[Rising-Sun]

Surprise to see some Japanese players that would ditch the Oscars, infact they are pretty good planes for awhile.

ORIGINAL: Shark7

Well, I'm actually at 10/42 in my current game, and I've still got the Sally in production, I just never increased it. I'm just at the point now of really deciding that having 2 bombers that do exactly the same thing with essentially the same stats isn't making sense. Be better off to decide on one of them and go all in.

I pretty much do what all players do as far as IJN production, but the Sally vs Helen question was one I never really answered. Basically I punted on it by not increasing production rates of either (instead concentrating on the Nell/Betty production). Which honestly made sense considering that I do use the Nell/Betty groups a lot, while the IJA bomber groups get relegated to China/Burma area where there is a lot less resistance in the early game.

Anyway, I was really looking for some one else's opinion on the matter to give me a better perspective, which you have done quite well. [:)]

I would prefer the Helens, wait til you get that armored planes, it has better chance to survive than without any armor. So I wouldn't waste Heavy Industry Points over something doesn't really need it.

[scout1]

Would also be helpful to provide insight as to how and when to adjust production and research for these "must have" aircraft ..... minimize current production and pour ALL into research ?

[SheperdN7]

Funny enough I have good results with the Oscar 1c compared to everyone else on here. My advice will contradict many a JFB but please, if you love your empire, DONT RESEARCH BOMBERS. I stick with the Ki-21 throughout the war, (everybody cringes including myself) but its not *THAT* bad of a bomber, good payload for IJAAF and range is good enough. For my naval bomber it is G4M all the way. This means I can focus on my fighters which usually will be the 2 T's Tojo + Tony until Frank comes in which effectively replaces the Tony as a frontline model. Still keep Tony in small production as its late war models are pretty good. I'll never understand some players love for the Oscar, but that's just my opinion.

Personally I'll get to the A6M5 Zero which is April '43 I believe and then focus all out on A7M Sam.

Jack over George, but its a coin flip.

L2D2 for Transport when it becomes available, until then you'll do with Ki-57 Topsy's.

Jake for floatplane eventually supplemented by Norm.

D4Y4 for Dive bomber, skip over Jill and go straight for Grace for Torpedo Bomber.

Nick's for fighter bomber and 4E killer. Upgrade to Randy when available.


If you want to save on supply, just keep Mavis in service its perfectly fine as is, don't "upgrade" to Emily.

I think that is it... OH almost forgot, for the Japanese light bombers I recommend producing either the Sonia or Ann until Nicks become available. Low production only.


Recon planes are up to you, I just go with the longest range possible. Except don't bother with the Myrt, Kido Butai is for attacking, not taking pictures[8|]

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: SheperdN7

Funny enough I have good results with the Oscar 1c compared to everyone else on here. My advice will contradict many a JFB but please, if you love your empire, DONT RESEARCH BOMBERS. I stick with the Ki-21 throughout the war, (everybody cringes including myself) but its not *THAT* bad of a bomber, good payload for IJAAF and range is good enough. For my naval bomber it is G4M all the way. This means I can focus on my fighters which usually will be the 2 T's Tojo + Tony until Frank comes in which effectively replaces the Tony as a frontline model. Still keep Tony in small production as its late war models are pretty good. I'll never understand some players love for the Oscar, but that's just my opinion.

You also lose a lot of pilots!

Using IJAAF bombers with no amor means you have less success all around. You'll lose more airframes, lose more pilots, and your pilots won't have as much chance to become experienced, thus more effective.

The G4M is incredibly fragile, not that fast and has almost no defensive armament. The Frances is much better.

The Oscar is simply something you can push. I can be using an Oscar IIIa in late 43, which is a decent escort at that time and not bad for low CAP. Nothing beats the range, and that is useful. The IV with two CL 20mm is a decent plane, and all of them from the IIb onward can be kamis late if you build too many. [:)]

Personally I'll get to the A6M5 Zero which is April '43 I believe and then focus all out on A7M Sam.

Jack over George, but its a coin flip.

L2D2 for Transport when it becomes available, until then you'll do with Ki-57 Topsy's.

Jake for floatplane eventually supplemented by Norm.

D4Y4 for Dive bomber, skip over Jill and go straight for Grace for Torpedo Bomber.

Nick's for fighter bomber and 4E killer. Upgrade to Randy when available.


If you want to save on supply, just keep Mavis in service its perfectly fine as is, don't "upgrade" to Emily.

I think that is it... OH almost forgot, for the Japanese light bombers I recommend producing either the Sonia or Ann until Nicks become available. Low production only.


Recon planes are up to you, I just go with the longest range possible. Except don't bother with the Myrt, Kido Butai is for attacking, not taking pictures[8|]

The Emily is so much better than the Mavis you're definitely missing out there. Great for moving troops, better protection, much longer range.

[Lokasenna]

I still use the G3M3 Nell for its range, but otherwise I say you should get out of the G4M and into the Frances as much as possible. If you can't see the Allies coming from 11-12 hexes out, then it doesn't matter anyway. And strikes from 20ish hexes out can be done by Nells just as well as they can be done by G4Ms. No point producing both. The G3M is primarily a search plane later on, while the Frances is primarily strike.

And I'm going to say it for the umpteenth time: Oscar sucks. Why would you choose to produce an inferior plane? Compare the Ki-43-IV Oscar to the Ki-100-I Tony (you can get to either at about the same time):

Speed: 364 / 360
Max Range: 33 / 26
Normal Range: 6(10) / 5(8)
Extended: 8(13) / 7(10)
Max alt: 36810 / 36090
Climb: 3140 / 2730
Maneuver: 33 / 21
Durability: 23 / 30
Armor: 1 / 1
Guns: 2x CL 20mm Ho-5 / ditto PLUS 2x F 12.7mm MG
Bombs: 2x250kg on each

I guess the Tony uses the popular Ha-33 instead of the Ha-35, but engine is a nonfactor for me unless it's a unique engine (like Ha-60 or Ha-5). Sure, the Oscar is more maneuverable and climbs a bit faster, but dies so much easier. I guess you can escort farther with it, but I don't feel the need to strike more than 10 hexes away. That's just a recipe for feeding the Allied pilots much-needed kills for experience.

[Bullwinkle58]

And from a purely AFB POV, not really knowing the production trade-offs, I don't fear the Jack a bit. But I really hate the George. They are not even close to even planes in combat, especially versus P-47s.

[Lokasenna]

In our game, both seem to be doing OK. The Frank has been surprisingly underwhelming, comparatively.

[Rising-Sun]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

I still use the G3M3 Nell for its range, but otherwise I say you should get out of the G4M and into the Frances as much as possible. If you can't see the Allies coming from 11-12 hexes out, then it doesn't matter anyway. And strikes from 20ish hexes out can be done by Nells just as well as they can be done by G4Ms. No point producing both. The G3M is primarily a search plane later on, while the Frances is primarily strike.

And I'm going to say it for the umpteenth time: Oscar sucks. Why would you choose to produce an inferior plane? Compare the Ki-43-IV Oscar to the Ki-100-I Tony (you can get to either at about the same time):

Speed: 364 / 360
Max Range: 33 / 26
Normal Range: 6(10) / 5(8)
Extended: 8(13) / 7(10)
Max alt: 36810 / 36090
Climb: 3140 / 2730
Maneuver: 33 / 21
Durability: 23 / 30
Armor: 1 / 1
Guns: 2x CL 20mm Ho-5 / ditto PLUS 2x F 12.7mm MG
Bombs: 2x250kg on each

I guess the Tony uses the popular Ha-33 instead of the Ha-35, but engine is a nonfactor for me unless it's a unique engine (like Ha-60 or Ha-5). Sure, the Oscar is more maneuverable and climbs a bit faster, but dies so much easier. I guess you can escort farther with it, but I don't feel the need to strike more than 10 hexes away. That's just a recipe for feeding the Allied pilots much-needed kills for experience.

That maneuver plays a major role plus pilot defense during dogfighting. As long not carry any dropping fuel tank or payloads, still a good plane. Without armor is risky of losing it. Take a look at the armaments, the higher accuracy there is, the better. Anything better than 12.7mm guns should be fine.

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

In our game, both seem to be doing OK. The Frank has been surprisingly underwhelming, comparatively.

Yeah they are, get them asap.

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

I still use the G3M3 Nell for its range, but otherwise I say you should get out of the G4M and into the Frances as much as possible. If you can't see the Allies coming from 11-12 hexes out, then it doesn't matter anyway. And strikes from 20ish hexes out can be done by Nells just as well as they can be done by G4Ms. No point producing both. The G3M is primarily a search plane later on, while the Frances is primarily strike.

And I'm going to say it for the umpteenth time: Oscar sucks. Why would you choose to produce an inferior plane? Compare the Ki-43-IV Oscar to the Ki-100-I Tony (you can get to either at about the same time):

I guess the Tony uses the popular Ha-33 instead of the Ha-35, but engine is a nonfactor for me unless it's a unique engine (like Ha-60 or Ha-5). Sure, the Oscar is more maneuverable and climbs a bit faster, but dies so much easier. I guess you can escort farther with it, but I don't feel the need to strike more than 10 hexes away. That's just a recipe for feeding the Allied pilots much-needed kills for experience.

Speed: 364 / 360
Max Range: 33 / 26
Normal Range: 6(10) / 5(8)
Extended: 8(13) / 7(10)
Max alt: 36810 / 36090
Climb: 3140 / 2730
Maneuver: 33 / 21
Durability: 23 / 30
Armor: 1 / 1
Guns: 2x CL 20mm Ho-5 / ditto PLUS 2x F 12.7mm MG
Bombs: 2x250kg on each
Factories already producing

HaHa! [:D]

I know how you feel about the Oscar. There are just some thing it does that other planes don't do as well. It's a great low CAP plane, but if you don't use low CAP the way I do you might not notice that. I didn't until this game when Lowpe showed me the ways. The manoeuvre makes a difference there.

It is a great escort. The extra few hexes DO matter sometimes, and especially when you don't have drop tanks available. When the Grace comes online it's especially useful.

Going through the list comparison I am actually surprised at how many things the Oscar does better than the Ki-100. Climb is a big advantage too, and maybe that is the factor I see in CAP duties, getting th numbers in action to make a difference, and using manoeuvre to dodge hits and keep the battle going longer so other planes make it into the fight.

Also, in terms of efficiency, I do have the engine surplus and I do have the factories sitting there already functioning from the beginning. So if I choose to keep producing the same amount I end up with a plan that is very serviceable and flexible through many tasks, just not as good as others at any (except escort). So that on it's own is useful. And in the end I then have a good kami with great range.

The Oscar is also useable throughout the line (service 1, 2 x 250kg and armor on the IIb), where the service 3-4 Tonys up to the Ki-100 are not so useful in many locations. I don't even make them (choosing to use the Oscar instead) which also can get me to the Ki-110 more efficiently.