v1.00.09 Axis 1939 Campaign

[rjh1971]

I will be posting my comments as I start a new games as Axis in this thread.

So far I customized the difficulty level for the AI: +2 spotting +10% mpp no advantage in experience.
Poland has fallen as it did historically 15th September (turn2)
To try something different I said no to the expansion to the East in Poland in exchange for loosing influence in Lithuania.

Currently transferring units to the West

I placed the Deutschland Heavy Cruiser and Sub first closed to Sidney Mines and the next turn sent them to Halifax, I was expecting to see mines laid out but instead the mines were hit.

The Brits are raiding the Norway convoy line.

[rjh1971]

I sent the Kriegsmarine to try to stop the the British buccaneers only to find it decimated, two CC, two DD and one sub sunk, Ouch the KM will be out of play for a long time. Minor loses inflicted to the RN.

The attack on TLC and Belgium took place on May 6th, both capitals were taken and both countries surrendered.

Research breakthrough> Industrial technology

[rjh1971]

France falls in July 21st, 994 mpps plundered.
More loses in the Atlantic for Germany.

Italy researches Naval Warfared.

[Mountaineer]

As I took Paris I decided that I would continue to prosecute the war with the French. The next pop up was a message that said Spain lost some support for the Axis because France was liberated. That message is incongruous with what happened.

[xwormwood]

@ Bill:

you could add a pop-up for Danzig once Poland has surrendered. After all it is an entity of its own, and was (at least for propaganda purpose) one of the reasons for Nazi-Germany to declare war on Poland.

[BillRunacre]

Thanks Mountaineer, I've fixed that now. [:)]

[Blond_Knight]

Im finding the advance through France to be less blitz and more slugfest.

[xwormwood]

Problem with lightning warfare is that this was achieved by surprise, mobile warfare, complete air superiority and a high risk gamble. In SC there is no surprise, no air superiority and no german gamble during the 1940 French campaign (the germans ignore the Ardennes and push through Belgium).
The Allied side gets morale losses every now and then. And with this it plays / feels much more like a modern French 1914 campaign against a weaker Entente.

[ReinerAllen]

This is an interesting dilemma. However, couldn't this be resolved through an adjustment of the FOG?

The French were surprised in the Ardennes, which they viewed as impassible and as such was was not strongly defended. France's cavalry recon divisions sent into the Ardennes had negligible impact, but I believe they could have provided a degree of early warning allowing the French to mount a counter action if their logistical and communication apparatus had been up to speed. And this leads to an aspect of the FOG which I've been uncomfortable with, but could not pinpoint why until the previous 2 posts.

As it stands, when a unit (land or sea) makes contact with an unseen enemy unit they suffer for it (ambush?). I don't believe this is realistic for many these contacts. The German army would not have stumbled into a French defensive works. Granted, they would have needed to stop and reassess and than mount a coordinated attack. Would they have stopped for 2 weeks? I think not. In first 2 weeks they were already half way to Paris.

So, what if the moving unit had a recon/spotting ability, the level of that ability dependent on its experience and quality, where they stop and reveal the hidden unit allowing the player to either continue its movement or stop?

Anyway, perhaps this can be resolved through tweaking the FOG. I look forward to Hubert and Bill resolving this in their own very unique way.

[jpinard]

ORIGINAL: RickEAllen

This is an interesting dilemma. However, couldn't this be resolved through an adjustment of the FOG?

The French were surprised in the Ardennes, which they viewed as impassible and as such was was not strongly defended. France's cavalry recon divisions sent into the Ardennes had negligible impact, but I believe they could have provided a degree of early warning allowing the French to mount a counter action if their logistical and communication apparatus had been up to speed. And this leads to an aspect of the FOG which I've been uncomfortable with, but could not pinpoint why until the previous 2 posts.

As it stands, when a unit (land or sea) makes contact with an unseen enemy unit they suffer for it (ambush?). I don't believe this is realistic for many these contacts. The German army would not have stumbled into a French defensive works. Granted, they would have needed to stop and reassess and than mount a coordinated attack. Would they have stopped for 2 weeks? I think not. In first 2 weeks they were already half way to Paris.

So, what if the moving unit had a recon/spotting ability, the level of that ability dependent on its experience and quality, where they stop and reveal the hidden unit allowing the player to either continue its movement or stop?

Anyway, perhaps this can be resolved through tweaking the FOG. I look forward to Hubert and Bill resolving this in their own very unique way.

The problem here is France was its own worst enemy. If you wanted to play for real in this game, then France would need double the number of tanks Germany had, and also more advanced tanks. In all honesty, the French were lead by Generals and a Department of War so bad leading up to and through the first German offensive, that you or I would look like geniuses compared to them. When you go back and look at the numbers of soldiers, the equipment, the stockpiles, the tanks, the French should have easily crushed the Germans. A normal person would have to do the exact opposite of what is good strategy to try and lose, to come close to what the French Leadership themselves did.

Lets put it another way. If we started this game with realistic army and tank numbers, the moment Germany invades Poland, France would be able to go in and crush Germany. Game would be over in a couple months every single time. Even if France did not go into Germany, Germany would not be able to overtake France.

But as mentioned, for realism, the one way this could be accomplished would be to give France real life numbers but make it so they can never see where German troops are except when there are 2 units next to it. Then in addition to this quarter their movement speed. If there's a script that can do this that would be really cool. Then when France finally fired the terrible Generals and got their act together (ironically when it was already too late) then those handicaps would be removed. But then again, a smart person would just camp all those troops in the best way to perform a counter attack.

Maybe we could have Generals that effect the whole map and are a massive negative effect on the troops doing what I just mentioned and also effecting their combat abilities? And the General is stuck way behind the lines and is unmovable so they can't be suicided. If France surrenders or after a certain amount of time goes by, then the general can be replaced.

But then we have an issue where the troops on the Maginot Line would have performed just fine against the Germans so they would need to be unaffected. So those troops would need an exemption or some kind of boost to compensate.

[sPzAbt653]

I would suggest removing French HQ units. They give the French unrealistic bonuses [if trying to reproduce an historic Fall of France].

[EdwinP]

Maybe we could have Generals that effect the whole map and are a massive negative effect on the troops doing what I just mentioned and also effecting their combat abilities? And the General is stuck way behind the lines and is unmovable so they can't be suicided. If France surrenders or after a certain amount of time goes by, then the general can be replaced.

But then we have an issue where the troops on the Maginot Line would have performed just fine against the Germans so they would need to be unaffected. So those troops would need an exemption or some kind of boost to compensate.

I like this idea.

A Supreme General unit (a unit selection - i.e. name this HQ unit the supreme general) that would impact all units not commanded by a HQ unit.

The example below seeks to recreate the lengthy decision making in the French high command:

1. Leader 1:(Gemelin) Each land unit not connected to a HQ unit has a chance of 25% losing its movement allowance for the turn. (i.e. 25% of your army can't move)
2. Leader 2:(Gemelin) Each land unit not connected to a HQ unit has movement reduced by 1 Action Point. Each unit attached to Gamelin suffers -1 AP.

For the US forces;

3. Leader 3: (Eisenhower) - No effect on units not attached to a HQ unit
4. Leader 4: (Patton) - No effect on units not attached to a HQ Unit, 25% per turn that all units attached to Patton receive +1 AP

[Ostwindflak]

Why would you go ahistorical by making Patton a Supreme Commander? He was a combat commander and never held the position above an Army commander.

[ReinerAllen]

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

I would suggest removing French HQ units. They give the French unrealistic bonuses [if trying to reproduce an historic Fall of France].

That might work, but for balance they should be allow them to build one from scratch.

The whole problem with the French army at that time was logistical. I read somewhere that they (the French) at one point, were transporting a division from the interior to the front. This turned into a nightmare of mishandling and misdirection, when they finally reach their destination they barely had a serviceable combat ready regiment.

[sPzAbt653]

That might work, but for balance they should be allow them to build one from scratch.

I agree with that.

The problems the French had were numerous. To Lose a Battle by Alistair Horne is a good book if you would like more information. Some bullet points:

The French were politically motivated to assist Belgium and Holland, but prior to being attacked, neither of these countries would cooperate with France. Still, the French sent their best units [the 1st and 7th Armies] into Belgium and Holland, where they accomplished nothing. [The 7th was the French General Reserve, so it was a huge mistake to send it toward Holland, leaving the French with no strategic reserve].

The French were geared to fight WWI, even after they saw how the Germans operated in Poland. The French strategy was defensive, no counterattack being possible until late 1941 at the earliest, they more reasonably considered summer 1942 as their planned counterattack date.

French and British heavy infantry tanks were 'superior' to German tanks in armor and armament, but they were slow and only carried enough fuel to keep up with the infantry. Resupply was very difficult, leaving many of the French tanks out of the battle.

The French kept 40 divisions behind the Maginot Line and guarding the Swiss border, as they feared the Germans had secret weapons to break thru the Maginot, and/or the Germans may attack thru Switzerland.

The French High Command was located in an old castle with one telephone and no radios, and that telephone was not usable two hours a day when the sole operator went to lunch. They relied on messengers.

And a killer point, several of the French divisions in the Sedan area disintegrated quickly under the Stuka Terror. While the French command was waiting for messengers to go back and forth, Guderian, Hoth and Reinhardt were right up front with their handful of elite divisions, and they needed no orders from higher up.

Spewing off for a couple of minutes is always a little bit of fun!

[sPzAbt653]

All the above said, I think that maybe the French need a few adjustments to their At Start OOB and Deployment. This could make a campaign there a little more blitzy, but still not completely historic due to scale.

A screen shot from the custom campaign I've been working on, based on Historic OOB's [not that I'm right, just a different look]. This shot is from Sept. 1939 and therefore allows the French side several turns to redeploy before a German attack occurs, but the number of units sort of eliminates a 'slugfest'.

[EdwinP]

I was able to take Netherlands and Belgium in one turn and Paris three turns later, of course France did not surrender until I killed a few more French units (nice touch with the Capital of France moving). Then I operated and moved units to the Spanish border zone and attacked Spain. Spain fell in 4 turns.

[xwormwood]

On which difficulty settings?

[EdwinP]

Intermediate, the two armor units, tactical bombers and the Parachute unit was most useful in executing the initial conquest of Belgium and the Netherlands (and Luxemburg).
Paris fell when an Armor unit; in hex 151,83, attacked after the Paris garrison was hit by all the available air units.