WitE 2

[Stelteck]

I see what you mean.

How about creating a minimum fatigue value to simulate that ?

A normal fresh unit can clear fatigue to 0 if rested. But each time the fatigue of the unit raise above 60%, the minimum fatigue is increased +5.
So after some turns of combat, minimum fatigue of the unit is not 0, but 10, 20, 30...... And even rested, fatigue stay at this level.

This minimum fatigue decrease upon time without combat like normal fatigue, but unlike normal fatigue, very slowly, such as 1/2/3 points each turn (admin rolls).

Also, normal fatigue level shall increase front line attrition.

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: morvael

I was thinking of another type of exhaustion, something between the two, where all your soldiers have PTSD, but you cannot replace them, because you lack manpower. So this isn't short term fatigue (that exists in WitE as "FAT") nor the global war exhaustion (that exists in WitE as hardcoded morale change), but something that makes your units worn out without the ability to fully rest them, unless you remove them from battle for half a year or more. The troops are resigned to their fate, some get mad and kill themselves, some go berserk and die etc. Guess such units of near-zombies are less effective than fresh ones.

Your missing the boat!

how you can act like you know how to play and give advise is kinda wrong

You know shit about 'playing'

your advise sucks bro sorry.

spend your time fixing the fucked up shit 2by3 handed you and stop giving just wrong player adive.

your tips are just wrong and suck.

D-mans data can not help at this point.

Spend more time with your family bro

[charlie0311]

Not only missing the boat, even missing the water with this. Sorry M.

[morvael]

This effect is clearly depicted in all diaires of privates from Eastern Front. Everyone has a point at which his psyche is permanently affected by the horrors of war. You need fresh recruits to overcome this, but Germans were forced to rely a lot on recycled manpower, and so it was overall dropping in quality. You gain experience fighting, but also accumulate "insanity points" to borrow a term from some other game. At some point the penalty from the second factor becomes dominant. I don't understand your comments, this is not advice, just an observation that there is long term fatigue (psychical) beside short term one (physical).

[RedLancer]

ORIGINAL: Pelton

ORIGINAL: morvael

I was thinking of another type of exhaustion, something between the two, where all your soldiers have PTSD, but you cannot replace them, because you lack manpower. So this isn't short term fatigue (that exists in WitE as "FAT") nor the global war exhaustion (that exists in WitE as hardcoded morale change), but something that makes your units worn out without the ability to fully rest them, unless you remove them from battle for half a year or more. The troops are resigned to their fate, some get mad and kill themselves, some go berserk and die etc. Guess such units of near-zombies are less effective than fresh ones.

Your missing the boat!

how you can act like you know how to play and give advise is kinda wrong

You know shit about 'playing'

your advise sucks bro sorry.

spend your time fixing the fucked up shit 2by3 handed you and stop giving just wrong player adive.

your tips are just wrong and suck.

D-mans data can not help at this point.

Spend more time with your family bro

When are you going to learn? You are on a final warning for this type of behaviour yet you still persist. I suggest you stop now before you cross the line once and for all (if you haven't already.)

[RedLancer]

I cannot envisage any major changes in WitE2 to the current system as to how MORALE, EXPERIENCE and FATIGUE influence combat and movement.

[zakblood]

well that didn't take long[:(]

[EwaldvonKleist]

@stelteck&morvael: Good example how a rational discussion can change the mind of people-I know see your point and I like it. It contributes only a litle bit to prevent snowballing (my thinking is here: The sides which wins has longer fighting soldiers because they don't die like flies, therefore they have more permanent fatigue).

@morvael: Was your "I don't understand your comment" directed to Pelton or me? I used physical and psychological according to the definition I gave in my last post, I am no native speaker so sorry if they were misleading. "Physical" means something you can touch, "psychological" somethin you can't touch, at least in the english I created for this single post [:)]


@Red Lancer: So the morale/fatigue/experience system remains mostly as it is in WITE 1? No disrespect but I do not understand why the game is so sophisticated in some aspects (combat engine black box, detailed TOE, support unit micromanagement) while mixing up some really important numbers in a single all powerful morale multiplier.

[sillyflower]

ORIGINAL: morvael

This effect is clearly depicted in all diaires of privates from Eastern Front. Everyone has a point at which his psyche is permanently affected by the horrors of war. You need fresh recruits to overcome this, but Germans were forced to rely a lot on recycled manpower, and so it was overall dropping in quality. You gain experience fighting, but also accumulate "insanity points" to borrow a term from some other game. At some point the penalty from the second factor becomes dominant. I don't understand your comments, this is not advice, just an observation that there is long term fatigue (psychical) beside short term one (physical).

And indeed in all armies at all times though no doubt at different levels in different times and different cultures. An absolutely excellent book that describes the problem in a tough Scottish infantry unit on the west front in '44-'45, is 'With the Jocks' by Peter White

[RedLancer]

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist

@Red Lancer: So the morale/fatigue/experience system remains mostly as it is in WITE 1? No disrespect but I do not understand why the game is so sophisticated in some aspects (combat engine black box, detailed TOE, support unit micromanagement) while mixing up some really important numbers in a single all powerful morale multiplier.

In essence it will. WitE2 will be an evolution from WitE via WitW. WitE took almost a decade, WitW took 4 years and we are over a year in with WitE2. Some items exist in so many places in the code that changing them may well do more harm than good. As has been often said morale is not really morale and is perhaps best described as combat capability. People can read too much into their understanding of morale. We did consider renaming it but even that was considered to be too much effort.

[rmonical]

@Red Lancer: So the morale/fatigue/experience system remains mostly as it is in WITE 1? No disrespect but I do not understand why the game is so sophisticated in some aspects (combat engine black box, detailed TOE, support unit micromanagement) while mixing up some really important numbers in a single all powerful morale multiplier.

I think you have national morale, unit morale, unit experience, leader quality, and fatigue. And WITE2 adds another short term effect: preparation points.

The system seems pretty sophisticated to me. How would you construct a more sophisticated "quality" multiplier that would be a material improvement over what we have now?

[No idea]

ORIGINAL: rmonical

@Red Lancer: So the morale/fatigue/experience system remains mostly as it is in WITE 1? No disrespect but I do not understand why the game is so sophisticated in some aspects (combat engine black box, detailed TOE, support unit micromanagement) while mixing up some really important numbers in a single all powerful morale multiplier.

I think you have national morale, unit morale, unit experience, leader quality, and fatigue. And WITE2 adds another short term effect: preparation points.

The system seems pretty sophisticated to me. How would you construct a more sophisticated "quality" multiplier that would be a material improvement over what we have now?

What are "preparation points"?

[RedLancer]

For Prep Pts see Post 560 : tm.asp?m=3933956&mpage=19&key=

The rules have recently changed but you get the idea (no pun intended).

[EwaldvonKleist]

ORIGINAL: rmonical

@Red Lancer: So the morale/fatigue/experience system remains mostly as it is in WITE 1? No disrespect but I do not understand why the game is so sophisticated in some aspects (combat engine black box, detailed TOE, support unit micromanagement) while mixing up some really important numbers in a single all powerful morale multiplier.

I think you have national morale, unit morale, unit experience, leader quality, and fatigue. And WITE2 adds another short term effect: preparation points.

The system seems pretty sophisticated to me. How would you construct a more sophisticated "quality" multiplier that would be a material improvement over what we have now?

I wrote a post where I explained my idea in detail, please follow this link rmonical: tm.asp?m=3933956&mpage=36&key=#

Morale mixes up doctrinal skill/doctrinal combat efficiency with the will to fight of the whole nation and/or unit. This combines very long term effects (combat efficiency) with short term effects (did the unit lose a battle last turn or not?) in one single, powerful multiplier which is in addition has a major influence on the experience multiplier (right?).
In addition, there should be a good impact of green replacements on unit experience.

@RedLancer: Because everything is mixed in the Morale thing, no word will ever fit satisfactorily. Prep points do not solve this old problem but they are a good new thing.

[sillyflower]

Experience does go down with the arrival of replacements. Quite a lot if you have quite a lot of replacements.

I have always thought that prep points combine recovering from the effects of any recent combat,making sure soldiers have all their kit in working order and know how to use it and are being trained both generally and in relation to everything about their planned objectives/terrain etc, which will/should feed back into the plans.

Of course all this should improve morale and experience levels in a virtuous circle. Morale is a tricky concept. Everyone knows what it means in terms of an individual, squad etc but any large battle is for the participants a mass of tiny battles with participants having limited or virtually no knowledge of what is going on beyond what they can see and hear.

No one is ever going to model morale realistically even in a skirmish game where 1 figure represents 1 man because individuals behave very differently in the same situation- something training is designed to minimise. It is so complex that the old miniatures method of throwing a couple of dice and adding/subtracting for specific factors then looking at a table to see whether a unit will obey you or do something else is just as accurate most of the time than anything more sophisticated - and more fun into the bargain.

In short - making it more sophisticated isn't going to make the game better in a way that is worth the effort, if at all. Nm can be tweaked because it is so basic, and is somewhat counter-intuitive at the moment.For example changes could be linked to current VP levels as a measure of 'how well are we doing' but then there's the impact on gameplay. More rule changes that help the player who is already winning are the last thing WiTE 2 needs IMHO.

[Elijah]

I think Morvael is onto something here...This sort of thing would be out of place in most wargames, but given the duration, nature, and intensity of what was, without a doubt, the most intense conflict in human history, it makes a lot of sense. In terms of the game design however, there should be someway to 'rest' units to reduce the IP buildup.

[Elijah]

Ah I see now there will be an 'axis reserve box' Perhaps placing divisions there, or to garrison areas that are non-combat like France 41-43 would help reduce PTSD,

[morvael]

Interestingly, being given (rare) leave, didn't reduce PTSD for the Germans. First, the soldiers had to suffer partisan attacks on their way home, then suffer Allied bombing, seeing civilians die (perhaps even some known to them personally), then suffer partisan attacks on their way back.

[Elijah]

The problem the Germans faced entering Barbarossa is they ALREADY were struggling for manpower to both run factories and man their armies. The economy was already 'overheating'. '41 just turned a big problem into a fatal one. Oh, and as for the contention that the Axis blew it by not driving straight to Moscow, I'd be curious to see someone in the game successfully take Moscow (and hold it) while the Soviets still have a powerful army around Gomel...Even if the Germans had taken Moscow, with the now even longer supply chain, the Blizzard, the Siberian reinforcements, and a huge flanking attack from the South, maybe AGC is completely destroyed and not just bloodied. As it was, AGC was only saved in the winter by Soviet incompetence. If the Soviet C&C had been better, the war would already have been all but over in '42.

[Elijah]

Hmm, suddenly I'm reminded of 'Cross of Iron', when Coburn's character would rather return to the front than go home. (He clearly had some 'IP's'). Oh and if anyone here has not seen that movie, I HIGHLY recommend it.