GD1938 Game 25 old VC

[cpdeyoung]

In GD1938 a war with Finland would have to be fought against either Germany or the Allies.

You probably don't want to fight Germany right now.

It is not right two have to potential allies fight each other as they might not give it a full effort.

Even if Germany was the most favored nation in Finland you would have to declare war on Germany to fight there and declaring war on Germany is an option available to you right now.

I agree that the USA should not be Finland's most favored nation, but if it were France or Great Britain or even Germany you would still have a dilemma.

Chuck

[tortugapower]

I think you're right that I don't want to go to war with Germany now. However, if going to war with Finland put Russia and Germany in hostilities, that seems a fair decision to me. It's something I can understand and plan for. I'm not sure why I would declare war right now as you said... are you referring to Lithuania? I'm not sure Lithuania is worth going to war over.

I don't mind going to war with USA over Finland from a selfish standpoint -- I'm happy to debate with myself the pros/cons of such a move for Russia. My hesitation is purely that I don't want to break game balance for the Axis by getting USA out of isolationism. I haven't played GD1938 so I shall rely on you guys for appropriate house rules.

If anyone besides USA were to control Finland (e.g., Great Britain, France, or even China), that is fine. I'm not trying to be fussy; I wouldn't consider it crazy or game-breaking if British/French forces moved to defend Finnish neutrality. Just like with Germany, that's a fun pros/cons to balance for Russia [:)]


So I still need a little more explanation about your quote saying that Russia can't attack USA or aid USA's entrance into the war. I will need to know what Russia can do with Finland. We can decided together (with Rufus), but I'd be strongly opposed to a house rule that Russia isn't allowed to invade Finland.

I naively propose that another Allied nation take the reigns from the US. That way Russia still has consequences to the Winter War, but it doesn't break the game balance.

[cpdeyoung]

I wish Ernie would change the MFN for Finland.

However this would still not really solve the problem. There has been a standing house rule in GD1938 that no-one can declare a war against a minor that is MFN with an ally, or even a potential ally. There have been instances where a nation would declare war, a "friend" would get the units to fight, but not vigorously fight them, and the attacker would happily pick up the minor. If France took Finland when you attacked one could wonder if they would not be glad in their hearts to see a possible invasion path for their Axis enemy dry up. When Germany attacks Poland it becomes French and may as well be 20 miles from Paris. Poland is gone and France has property in Eastern Europe. This would be the case with Finland, and Germany would have reason to be unhappy if either France or the Soviets were in Finland. We expect the French and Soviets will be fighting Germany together at some point in our game. At this point Germany is at war with France, and your attacking Finland (France) would not work well with our stated goal to have a game rather like WW2 actually happened.

When this game was designed we made allowances for the partition of Poland and the Nazi-Soviet pact, followed by a peace between Germany and the USSR, and a peace between the USSR and France, and any allies involved. We did not consider the Finnish situation.

Ernie wants to avoid having minors fought by the AI for technical (memory) reasons. Having human players do the fighting is also problematic, as we see. There is no easy answer, but the USA will stop influencing Finland where we are at 511+5 per month. It will be many months before any other nation can get that many points and switch MFN. Because of the complications I think the right nation to be MFN is Germany, but Rufus will have his own diplomatic agenda. If he sees fit he can use 5+5 points a turn to try and sow discord, and buy influence, but he has to want to do it, and if I were him I would not.

No easy answer, but an attack on the USA would be a horrible one. It would really mess up the premise of our game.

Ernie, this USA MFN for Finland needs to be re-examined I think.

Chuck

[tortugapower]

I see, so the Allies and Comintern are encouraged to help each other in this game? This is good to know.

Probably because I was reading the game #23 AAR (with different settings), I was more under the impression that it was each Alliance on their own, so in our case each player for himself. The Allies and Axis are obvious enemies, but I wondered if Russia was afforded some freedom about the path she takes.

[ernieschwitz]

Ernie, this USA MFN for Finland needs to be re-examined I think.

Right, this is a change I can do...

[ernieschwitz]

I have another fix, that might be more appropriate actually.

How about I make it so that as long as the USA is isolationist then they cannot take over a minor for purposes of defending it. Instead that responsibility falls on the 2nd most in favour of the country, or third, if that 2nd one is the attacking party...

It would take SOME coding, but the results I find are more elegant. It would also solve once and for all the US neutral country gambit, which has been played on Finland and Denmark, I believe... maybe others too?

[RufusTFirefly]

@ tortugapower

I have to admit I have no good solution for the Finland question. An early entry of USA in the war would result in an early lost game for Axis. I expect to loose this game anyway. But I like to have a fair chance to survive to some late war date. For this Western Allies should not grow too strong too fast. It is already very hard to defeat France while the Low Country forces have increased in strength that much due to the last changes of the scenario. Maybe it is best to try to attack at southern France as Ironduke has done recently.

On the other hand I understand your interest to take Finland and get some more production capacity for SU.

Maybe France or GB can influence Finland and replace USA as most favoured nation. As I am already at war with France and GB any DoW would be ok for me. In this case you could attack while Chuck remains passive in Finland. Would be an easy victory for you but cost some losses anyway. Think it would be a good deal for both of us. But it would cost some PP for Western Allies. It would be a disadvantage for Chuck and therefore be not a really good idea.

The only other way to handle this would be to wait til Ernie has changed the scenario. But it might take some time. Maybe someone else has some good idea?

@ Ernie: Finland and Denmark, that is all I think. Thanks for your efforts to improve this already great scenario!

[tortugapower]

Well things are happening quite fast: it seems Germany is now at war with Poland. So the next question (haha)... how are we going to work Molotov-Ribbentrop?

I've seen it mentioned a few times that Russia declares war on Poland, and Germany and Russia declare peace after Poland is taken. Is that how we do this?

And I just have to say: holy crap, this is a really busy and early start to the war!

[RufusTFirefly]

This scenario often is played with some turns of preparation by all sides. Alliances are formed and appointments are made. Often the players of Axis and Sovjets agree to attack Poland simultaniously and make an agreement how to devide the Polish cities. They sign peace after Poland is eliminated.

Meanwhile some changes of the scenario have been made that make me think it is essential for Axis to gain as much territory and as much cities in the beginning as possible. Each turn Axis waits the Western Allies will get stronger. And they are quite strong in the beginning already. As I said before I think the Low Countries are too strong. Axis cannt rush through. This enables GB to send forces to France, to devop better fighters (better fighters are a big plus for Germany in the beginning) and install a good blockade against German subs and any supply lines for the Italiens in N-Africa. I have to admit that I am still shocked by the way I was stopped in my advance an earlier game, where Ironduke managed to stabilize a front in the Pyrenees. At that point the game was lost. USA supplied the Western Allies and sent units. I could do nothing than to defend and retreat turn by turn.

(Btw, to avoid an early loss of N-Africa I keep Italy out of the war in the beginning. With Royal Navy blocking supply routes it is impossible to hold the African provinces. Instead the southern flank of Axis would become a weak point.)

So I decided to attack as soon as possible - although it had been the intention of Bombur and Ernie to add some diplomacy to the game. I want Axis to become as strong as possible in the beginning to be able to survive for some time.

As this is my intention I decided not to negotiate with SU, but to take all of Poland on my own. The attack on Lithuania was the first step. I wanted to have a larger front in the east to attack Poland from east and west.

Not the best situation for Sovjets as they cannt attack Finland and might get nothing of Poland. Maybe Sovjets can take some Balkan minors, mainly as Italy is not yet at war and wont be able to advance on the Balkan. Romania and its supply center at Ploesty are important for anyone who wants to control the Balkan. I am not interested in an early war with SU. So SU may send armies to the south and become the major power along the whole Black Sea coast (and as SU might influence Turkey this might make SU more powerful in the east of Europe and the Near East region).

[tortugapower]

February, 1938.

The Russian command feels very threatened by an explosion of military activity right at their border. As the Germans have not tried to concede any of Poland to its rightful owner (the USSR), we will not soon forget this treachery. A little piece of the pie could easily have caused Russian forces to look the other way.

Perhaps the Germans will come to their senses... We expect any day for them to come to us with an offer, saying "please take the lands which you rightfully deserve".

-----

Out-of-character discussions:

I did not accept the French proposal of an alliance. If I wanted to invade Estonia, how would such a thing work, as it will put me at war with the British. I know this question "reveals my hand", but I'd ask that you try not to use this information against me.

This is just the unfortunate nature of having a new player -- I'm not yet familiar with these things, and I feel it's better to ask them to avoid breaking the game.

Cheers.

edit: Also, did we resolve the Finland issue? Can we force or code/edit another nation in as the closest ally? Russian troops are getting edgy.

[cpdeyoung]

The situation in Finland is not going to change. No western power will try and influence if you want to gain Finland by diplomacy, but Germany might.

Normally the Germans let the Soviets obtain the Baltic States by diplomacy, but Germany may oppose you as it is fast starting. In most games you would have much more time! Going to war is more dangerous than diplomacy.

Declaring war on the West over the Baltic states will have consequences. I would advise against it. Germany will almost certainly attack you at some point. Best to not antagonize the whole world. Build your forces up, improve their quality (25 PP per turn), build your economy, and build annexes in your cities. Use diplomacy to gain points.

If you show your good intentions towards the west (accept alliances) the French and British may give areas of eastern Europe, and eastern European troops to you. This will make the German quickly realize he must either hold off in the East, or risk war with you. I cannot believe he is ready to take us all on at this time ... but ... this is a very aggressive German.

Chuck

[tortugapower]

ORIGINAL: cpdeyoung

The situation in Finland is not going to change. No western power will try and influence if you want to gain Finland by diplomacy, but Germany might.

Okay, I will use in-game diplomacy points for this. What's the best way to achieve this goal, is it to smear the U.S. or is it to promote myself?


Keep in mind, I've never played GD1938 before. My "out of character" comments are coming from a technical/game rules standpoint. It seems fitting for the Allied player to caution against war with the Baltic states from a role-playing perspective... but my question is more about the mechanics: what does it mean for the game?

If I were to ally with France, I assume that would draw me into war with Germany. And, would it make it impossible for me to declare war on a Baltic state, since that would put me at war with an ally? Or does the game just drop the alliance in that case and put me at war with the ally?

Thanks.

[cpdeyoung]

To get Finland try discord and influence, they are both cheap. Remember Rufus may try and throw a wrench in your plans.

I was not speaking as a western nation when I cautioned you about attacking the west. You may have noticed some discussion of peace making after war between powers. The gist of all this is that if the USSR attacks GB-FR-CH (all allied now) there is a strong feeling, a "house rule", that the war should not be a "phoney war". The USSR and the West would be expected to go at it hammer and tongs. How long - well, who knows? It is a problem caused by having an attacked minor "disappear" into a Major power. You attack a minor, and the MFN, always a Major, takes the country as native soil and must fight you. He is not "playing" the minor, the minor no longer exists, there is no more Finland, and never can be. It is France now, and you are at war with France, and her Allies. It is a goofy system caused by Ernie not being able to give a minor AI status. This is a technical issue.

If Vic could allow an AI to take over at the point of the attack it would relieve this pressure (I think, perhaps Ernie can confirm or deny this). Diplomacy and issues of war and peace are very complicated, and get in the way of a "real" simulation of the Winter War, for example. In Game 25 we are trying to simulate the actual course of WW2 a bit more than often happens. However we are playing GD1938, and wonderful as this creation is, it is a "mod" of a game where diplomacy is not modeled as it might be. The name ATG does have "Tactics" in it after all. The game certainly can simulate operational warfare, but strategic and diplomatic conflict is a stretch.

You could ally with France, or all the western alliance, but if Germany, or Japan, or Italy attack any minor whose MFN was a western power then you would be drawn in. At some point we expect the USSR to fight the Germans anyway, but perhaps not because of an attack on a minor.

No nation can attack a minor who has an allied power as MFN.

Chuck

[tortugapower]

Thanks, Chuck. Things are becoming more clear now. I understand how the minor nation takeover happens. In my opinion, in situations like Finland and the Baltic states, I think the major who takes over should defend them 100% tooth and nail, but I don't necessarily think the actual major power needs to turn hostile. I don't support phoney wars, and I would always want the minor-controller to fight hard; however, do you think that the response of the Allies should be measured by the minor nation that is being taken?

I'm not very familiar with the Russian annexation of the Baltic states, but historically it seems like the Allies made nary a protest about it. If Russia were to DoW Brazil or Argentina, or even Sweden, I can see more being made about it. This is me talking objectively, although it also aligns with "in-character" Stalin's position that I don't want the Allies to attack based on my would-be invasion of Estonia. Such a response, in fact, seems incredible.

-- A note to Rufus. Kindly pretend you don't see my intentions here. I only reveal them to discuss game balance [:)] --

I really enjoy a fair fight, so I'm not trying to even bend the rules or push anything. I'm actually quite happy to have things go historically... all the way to 1945 [;)]

[RufusTFirefly]

As far as I see there are two options for Sovjets.

Germany, GB and France might play the discord card to help to lower the US influence. To play a fair game I think we should do so. Of course this will bring Germany in first position in Finland. But a DoW of Sovjets against Finland and a an automatic DoW against Germany as well might be handled. I would fight hard against SU, but Germany and SU might have a cease fire. After Finland is defeated SU and Germany might sign peace. Later we are free to start another war.

Second option would be that SU does not try to take Finland but attack Estonia and Latvia instead. Two cities, production capacity of 3000 points and 6000 points are in sum more than Helsinky with a capacity of 6000 points. In this case SU has to fight France as protector of these minors. But it should be a short fight in any case, as the armies of these minors are weak. (But in case of an alliance of GB and France with USA might cause a war against USA as well, and would be no option. Dont have in mind whether GB, France and USA are allied at the moment.)

[cpdeyoung]

The USA cannot be allied at this time - isolationism!

If you don't mind Rufus, this does make the Baltic suggestion do-able. The USA did not influence Finland, but shedding her MFN status will take awhile. After you take the Baltic territory the FR-GB-(CH) will make peace with you. I will give you a fight Tortugapower, but this is not normal. You cannot expect this to happen in other instances of GD1938 games.

It might be better "training" for you if you hold off and use diplomacy during the early game. Grab what you can with diplomacy. Present a credible threat in the east, which keeps Rufus "honest" about garrisons. Sit back and watch the show in the west. During this period you can surprise Rufus with a pre-emptive attack if the occasion arises. Be aware that you are weaker than you look. The purges have been modeled and your forces do not fight well. You can use time to "improve quality" and buy "better training" and "superior doctrines".

Chuck

[tortugapower]

March, 1938.

The Russians stand by and watch as the Germans gobble up Poland, bit by bit. It is with some interest that we also watch matters between France and Germany in the west, especially with Poland's protectorate forces being lead by the French (a strange sight, to be sure).

And while Stalin has withheld any aggression in order to seize the Polish lands which are properly ours, it appears Latvia wishes no part in the slaughter taking place to her south. She has surrendered peacefully to the USSR, hoping that our might shall shelter her.



-- out-of-character notes --

Latvia surrendered to me without resistance. I read about this in the briefing, but I'm far from understanding the mechanics. I would like to duplicate this if at all possible with Estonia, because this avoided a war between me and France, which would have been especially awkward considering their control of Poland. What are the game mechanics controlling this, just number of occupied border hexes?

I also forgot (doh!) to influence Finland, but I will start doing that. It may be a really late Winter War in the end, but that's okay. We're just going to skip the part where we lose and jump right to the Continuation War (preferably the end of it).

[RufusTFirefly]

ORIGINAL: tortugapower

Latvia surrendered to me without resistance. I read about this in the briefing, but I'm far from understanding the mechanics. I would like to duplicate this if at all possible with Estonia, because this avoided a war between me and France, which would have been especially awkward considering their control of Poland. What are the game mechanics controlling this, just number of occupied border hexes?

It is not the number of hexes you control but the relation between your forces at the border and the forces of the country you want to attack. In case your forces are superior there is a certain chance that the minor will surrender. It is not a simple equation but a role of dice. Sometimes they will surrender, sometimes not. Luxemburg did not surrender when I attacked. And I had far more forces at the borders than the small Luxemburg.

[cpdeyoung]

7 March 1938

The situation in Poland.

[tortugapower]

March, 1938.

The Russian forces achieved major victories this month, for the Motherland! The seeds of glorious communism are spreading into Poland, as Russia has jumped to claim the lands that she is entitled to before the fascist forces can gobble it all up for themselves.



Behind the pro-Communist & pro-Motherland propaganda, there is a real feeling of relief in the Russian command, despite the fact that tensions with the Germans will be elevated by this move. Stalin felt that giving the Germans all of Poland would put them too close to Kiev, Minsk, Moscow, and other major Russian cities. There are rumors that major industrial bases could be moved further east in case of an invasion, but without this buffer zone, Russia would hardly have time to react.

Having created this buffer, Stalin now pleads with his fellow rulers, especially those in the League of Nations, to bring hostilities to an end. There should be... "peace in our time".



-----

Okay, a very strange turn. I checked my diplomatic options, and France is the buddy of Estonia, who only had a 33% to capitulate. So I planned to use that war with France to take the Polish lands. I planned to take Estonia and any Polish lands I wanted in one turn (the two minor cities in the east -- Lvov and Vilnius).

Weirdly, Estonia surrendered. Very unfortunate (though a 1/3 chance isn't that shocking). After a long period of thought, in which I dangerously left my game running overnight, although no crashes thank goodness, I decided to declare war on France to achieve the conquest of Polish lands. I hope this is taken for what it is -- an attack on Poland, not the Allies -- but I'm interested in seeing how things develop from here.

I'm willing to discuss my actions from a game-balance standpoint. I have put out a peace request to the Allies after taking the Polish lands I wanted as a buffer. Germany may be disappointed about this as I think they wanted all of Poland, but I don't feel too bad about playing along more or less with what I think Stalin would have done -- and in fact, did [:D] -- but if Germany decides to launch an early attack on Russia, well I'll have to live with that as a consequence.

One final note: Chuck, please check your private messages. I made a mistake on the Chinese border once we went to war -- it may need your attention.

Lots of fun so far! [:)]