New to the game - Basic Questions

[rkr1958]

ORIGINAL: Centuur

Which means that MWIF is coded correctly.

Thanks guys! Yes, my opponent won the initiative and decided to move first. However, what I'm understanding is moving first has nothing to with it. It's the person who won the roll and got to decide to move first or not. Whether or not he moved first is irrelevant. Correct?

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

RAW 7

13.4 Return to base
Units at sea can return to base during this step. If they do, they will be available to sail again in the next turn. Those that stay at sea will only be able to stay in the sea-box next turn or sail back to a port.
Units may return to base during naval movement, after aborting from combat and during this step. You return units to base like a normal naval move except in reverse.
Each unit returning to base is limited by its movement allowance (reduced for the sea-box section it is occupying) and by its range.
A unit must return to base during this step if it is:
ï any unit (except convoy points) of a neutral major power; or
ï a TRS with a cargo on board; or
ï any unit (except convoy points) in the 0 section.
Any other of your units can return to base if you like. Convoy points can stay at sea even if they are in the 0 section. If they do return to base, they won’t be able to convoy resources in the production step of this turn.
Both sides (side with initiative first) must decide which units to return to base and which to keep at sea.

And just a little bit further down from your quote in RAW7 is this gem:

After both sides make these decisions, units return to base (active side first).

Who's the active side? It's the phasing player. Who's the phasing player? It's the player that was moving in the impulse that preceded the turn ending.

It is this last quote that's been changed in RAW8 to be:

After both sides make these decisions, units return to base (side with initiative first).

Which is a good thing because then the two quotes become consistent.

In Ronnie's game, it appears the Axis was RTBing first and he interpreted that to mean they were the phasing player but what was really happening was that the Axis had the initiative. If the Allies moved last when the turn ended, then the Allies were the phasing player.

If the Axis had the initiative and were RTBing first then MWiF is coded per RAW8.

If the Allies moved last and were RTBing first then MWiF is coded per RAW7.

[Joseignacio]

OK, then it was clearly a mistake of the RAW7, one that wasn't even questioned for clarification in the FAQ.

[rkr1958]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

RAW 7

13.4 Return to base
Units at sea can return to base during this step. If they do, they will be available to sail again in the next turn. Those that stay at sea will only be able to stay in the sea-box next turn or sail back to a port.
Units may return to base during naval movement, after aborting from combat and during this step. You return units to base like a normal naval move except in reverse.
Each unit returning to base is limited by its movement allowance (reduced for the sea-box section it is occupying) and by its range.
A unit must return to base during this step if it is:
ï any unit (except convoy points) of a neutral major power; or
ï a TRS with a cargo on board; or
ï any unit (except convoy points) in the 0 section.
Any other of your units can return to base if you like. Convoy points can stay at sea even if they are in the 0 section. If they do return to base, they won’t be able to convoy resources in the production step of this turn.
Both sides (side with initiative first) must decide which units to return to base and which to keep at sea.

And just a little bit further down from your quote in RAW7 is this gem:

After both sides make these decisions, units return to base (active side first).

Who's the active side? It's the phasing player. Who's the phasing player? It's the player that was moving in the impulse that preceded the turn ending.

It is this last quote that's been changed in RAW8 to be:

After both sides make these decisions, units return to base (side with initiative first).

Which is a good thing because then the two quotes become consistent.

In Ronnie's game, it appears the Axis was RTBing first and he interpreted that to mean they were the phasing player but what was really happening was that the Axis had the initiative. If the Allies moved last when the turn ended, then the Allies were the phasing player.

If the Axis had the initiative and were RTBing first then MWiF is coded per RAW8.

If the Allies moved last and were RTBing first then MWiF is coded per RAW7.

OK, I'm really confusing everyone, especially myself. The situation was that Pat won the roll for the initiative and elected to move first. The turn ended on my impulse. However, during RTB (and stay at sea), MWiF had Pat go first.

[Dabrion]

Should be initiative side first for rtb decisions. It reads "active side" in RAW7, but there is no active side in E. END OF TURN STAGE. It was changed in this way in RAW8.

active side: the side whose impulse it is
initiative side: the side which won the initiative roll (even if they let the other side have the first impulse)

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

OK, then it was clearly a mistake of the RAW7, one that wasn't even questioned for clarification in the FAQ.

I recently started playing a new RAW7 Vassal game with some gentlemen who had been playing together awhile and I was surprised when they checked who had been active when it got to RTBing - because my local group and I had always played it as initiative first for both stay-at-sea and RTB. But when they point you to the place in the rules where it precisely supports what they are doing, then claiming it's an oversight or a typo really doesn't trump the written rule. No doubt many others play it as written.

[IBender]

I am not understanding convoys unfortunately. I get the basic idea that they move resources from a location back to the USA for example for production, but if I am the usa, how do I know where to put convoys? How many into each zone? I am reading an AAR where the guy put all of convoys for usa in the pacific and 0 in the atlantic. If someone would try and explain this in simple terms while I read the manual again that would be awesome!

Thanks

[Orm]

US convoy placement is fairly easy. CW, Japan, and France are the trickier countries. With CW as the toughest ones. There is a thread on the forum that suggests different initial convoy placements for the AIO if you are interested. I think there is a short comment for each of the variants.

But if you want to delve into it for USA I will try to explain it.

[Orm]

First I recommend that you read 5.1 Trade agreements in Rules as coded. It explains the initial aspects of the special trade between Japan and USA.

[Orm]

If you click on info and then trade agreements you get the information shown in the picture. There you will see that USA is involved in three trade deals. Two with Japan and one with Venezuela.´

Major powers, like USA, always need to provide the transport for the resources from a minor country that you intend to use. Since Venezuela trade 3 oil you need 1 convoy point per oil in each sea area between Venezuela and USA. Fortunately it is only one sea area so in that sea area you need to place three convoy points.

[Orm]

For trade with Japan there is the special trade rule I that I recommended that you read. Basically it says that USA must provide convoy points for four sea areas between USA and Japan. While Japan provides the convoys for the last sea area. The total number of resources (including oil) and build points traded is 5 so you need to place 5 convoy points in each of those sea areas. There is a very hefty penalty for the nation who is in breech of this.

[IBender]

This is really really helpful thank you very much.

[Orm]

That covers all the trade. Now take a look at the resources, including oil, that US controls. You can do that by clicking on info and open the production planning form. Here all the resources that US has are shown and the traded ones will be shown as well.

You will note that USA only controls two resources that are outside mainland USA. One in Alaska and one in Philippines.

If there was a railroad from the oil in Alaska that went straight to a factory in USA there would be no need for a convoy. But there isn't. So you need to transport it by sea. But fortunately the Canadian ports and railroad system is open to US so you can use that for the final route. So the Alaskan oil only needs one convoy point in one sea area for it to reach USA.

And now there is only the Philippines resource left. Unfortunately you do not have enough convoy points to get that resource to USA. This because 20 convoy points are tied up with the trade with Japan. You can either ignore this resource. Or you can during the course of the game establish a convoy chain to USA although not many do so. Or you can at some point establish trade with China and then use two convoy points to transport this resource to China. Provided that the 'Burma road' is open. But this has some prerequisites so I suggest you ask again when you are at that point.

[Orm]

Easiest way to place convoys and get a overview is to use the Global Map so I recommend you toggle it on. In the picture below I have zoomed it out. Note that you can change the nation whose convoys you want shown.

In the picture I have made a 'standard' US convoy placement with 3 convoy points remaining. Two of them can be placed at sea and then sail towards Philippines if you go for the option of sending the resource to China. Although it is not uncommon for Japan to try and stop this by isolating China.

[Orm]

If the convoy markers are not the right size then you can change their size. Either by joining all the convoys in the same stack or sea area. Or you can split them. You do this by 'right clicking' on the convoy marker and select 'naval units' and then split or merge.

[IBender]

Wow, again this is awesome. Helps a lot to have someone explain it in addition to reading it in the manual. Really appreciate it. I bought two copies of the game, one for me and one for my son. We are both trying to learn it together and we appreciate your response.

[Orm]

If you want to take a look on the initial convoy routing for the CW AIO then here is the link. This is also done for all the major powers. With lots of pictures.

tm.asp?m=978889&mpage=10&key=Brittish%2 ... r&#2244199


The AIO threads are full of interesting information although some of them are quite long. But below is a link to where you can find all of the AI discussions.

tm.asp?m=3472975

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: Azorn01

Wow, again this is awesome. Helps a lot to have someone explain it in addition to reading it in the manual. Really appreciate it. I bought two copies of the game, one for me and one for my son. We are both trying to learn it together and we appreciate your response.

I am just glad to be of assistance. [:)]

Anything more you can think of asking at the moment?

[Orm]

Just for fun. Here is picture 'active' Allied (France and CW) convoys in my current game. It is a mess although I am working on fixing it. The mean Axis are way to good to mess up my routes. [:D]

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: Azorn01

Wow, again this is awesome. Helps a lot to have someone explain it in addition to reading it in the manual. Really appreciate it. I bought two copies of the game, one for me and one for my son. We are both trying to learn it together and we appreciate your response.

I am glad that you are able to play with your son. [:)]

Have you tried playing any of the two scenarios yet?