To all the cooks

[fuselex]

Just finished Big Ivans scenario`s .
Great fun
To all the cooks ,
Incredible job .

[Big Ivan]

Glad you liked them fuselex!

Which one was your favorite?

Any words of wisdom on improvements to make them better, fire away. I'm sure there are some shortcomings with them.

Thanks[;)]

Big Ivan

[fuselex]

good thing is I don`t know all the rules that come with the game that Toth is compared to.
I can click on something and maybe it doesn`t do what others think it should do , but I don`t really see that.
For myself I had a great time on - no other choice - it was 15 turns?
words of wisdom? - not from me - others maybe ? , but I love to turn Toth on and play , and
you have done that

[UP844]

I played all of them with both sides:

"No Other Choice" has some issues because of the lack of aggressiveness shown by German tanks. I also tried setting all the German AFVs to "ATTACK" but they continue starting and stopping in the same hex, even when they have enemy units in LOS [&:]. This is not a falult of the scenario (which looks interesting... I only wish I could have some opponents for my T-34/85s). I hope the AI becomes more aggressive with the release of Update 2, which should address this issue.

Both "A Grim Reminder" and "Death at Strudanska" provide a nice challenge for both sides and I really enjoyed them: two great scenarios!

Some small remarks:
- In "Death at Strudanska": a German leader is set for "FREE" deployment while all other units are set for "Zone 1". This is an almost negligible issue. In this scenario, the Germans have two OBA, but they can only use one (Peter has already solved this issue, however).
- In "A Grim Reminder", the last Russian infantry reinforcements cannot arrive to the city (not even with double-time). They would only be useful if the Germans try to recapture the lone VP hex near the top left of the map (unlikely).
- In all the scenarios, mortars (and, in "No other choice" a 76mm ART gun) are set up in buildings: I don't know if this was made on purpose, but they cannot fire from such locations (only AT guns less than 75mm can fire from buildings). A human player will undoubtedly take the guns out and start blasting the enemy, but the AI is not so smart and leaves them sitting (as in "sitting duck" [:D]). The AI handled the German mortars in "A Grim Reminder" (which are set up in the open) well, and in "Death at Strudanska", the 82mm mortar (which I took out of the building) stopped the German attack to the southern bridge almost single-handedly [:)].

This is a fine trio of scenarios, anyway: thanks for making them!

[Peter Fisla]

AI is VPO driven, not enemy units. Do you have a scenario that I can take a look? Saved game ? If AI side is on HOLD, you can set an AI unit to attack which means the Ai is on offensive or you can set DEFEND a specific hex and AI will defend that hex.

[UP844]

The scenario is "JP001 - No Other Choice".

Here are the scenario settings: the German AI is set to "ADVANCE". Individual German AFVs have no AI special orders, but even when I give them the "ATTACK" order they remain in their setup hexes. At most, they start and stop in the hex (with the occasional Panther D self-destructing [:D]).

[UP844]

In the screenshot here there are the tanks that remain immobile. On the right (not shown here) there are a 251/9 and a Panzer IV that - unlike the rest of the Panzers, attack the Russians on their side: the only difference I noticed is that they are a bit closer to the nearest VP hex, though I don't know if distance to the VP hex makes any difference.

At the start of the scenario, all the VP hexes are controlled by the Russians, so the AI should be "motivated" enough to attack. And in fact the infantry sprints forward at the very start of the game.

P.S. I was playing at Very Difficult level, so there should be no chance that AI units are stopped because of C&C.

[marcdhanna]

I look forward to trying Ivan's stuff. Working my way through the provided scenarios at the moment!

[Big Ivan]

ORIGINAL: UP844

I played all of them with both sides:

"No Other Choice" has some issues because of the lack of aggressiveness shown by German tanks. I also tried setting all the German AFVs to "ATTACK" but they continue starting and stopping in the same hex, even when they have enemy units in LOS [&:]. This is not a falult of the scenario (which looks interesting... I only wish I could have some opponents for my T-34/85s). I hope the AI becomes more aggressive with the release of Update 2, which should address this issue.

Both "A Grim Reminder" and "Death at Strudanska" provide a nice challenge for both sides and I really enjoyed them: two great scenarios!

Some small remarks:
- In "Death at Strudanska": a German leader is set for "FREE" deployment while all other units are set for "Zone 1". This is an almost negligible issue. In this scenario, the Germans have two OBA, but they can only use one (Peter has already solved this issue, however).
- In "A Grim Reminder", the last Russian infantry reinforcements cannot arrive to the city (not even with double-time). They would only be useful if the Germans try to recapture the lone VP hex near the top left of the map (unlikely).
- In all the scenarios, mortars (and, in "No other choice" a 76mm ART gun) are set up in buildings: I don't know if this was made on purpose, but they cannot fire from such locations (only AT guns less than 75mm can fire from buildings). A human player will undoubtedly take the guns out and start blasting the enemy, but the AI is not so smart and leaves them sitting (as in "sitting duck" [:D]). The AI handled the German mortars in "A Grim Reminder" (which are set up in the open) well, and in "Death at Strudanska", the 82mm mortar (which I took out of the building) stopped the German attack to the southern bridge almost single-handedly [:)].

This is a fine trio of scenarios, anyway: thanks for making them!

UP844 [Carlo],

Thanks very much for the in depth and constructive remarks.[;)]

These scenarios were early creations before I had a chance to read through the entire manual. Still haven't found the
page where the manual talks about ordnance placement in buildings but I'll keep looking. As for the other observations
they are easily corrected and I will do that here soon.

Thanks so much for playing them from both sides. From your comments it sounds like you enjoyed them and the two sided
analysis is invaluable to me as the designer. When I make a balanced, enjoyable and challenging scenario I feel my mission
is accomplished. I try and do this in my scenario creations for Campaign Series.

Unfortunately I can't do anything about how the A/I plays, that's a game engine issue for Peter to look into. But I do agree
with other overall comments I've seen throughout the forum that the A/I needs to be more aggressive and just not sit there
starting and stopping.

But as A/I's go, this one in TotH is not bad and with a little work I'm sure it would be better.

Cheers!

Big Ivan [John][:)]

[rico21]

+1 Big Ivan[John] [&o]
-1 UP844[Carlo][:D]

[UP844]

Hello Big Ivan [John],

the manual says nothing about gun placement in buildings: I discovered it the hard way when I saw a StuG IIIB nicely coming down a road towards a 85mm AA gun emplaced in a building. I started grinning, then a window appeared in the center of the screen stating my gun cannot fire from that location.

Manhandling guns is another undocumented TOTH feature: as far as I have been able to ascertain, you can manhandle any type or MTR, INF or AT gun regardless of calibre and ART guns 76mm or less. AA guns cannot be manhandled. The smaller the gun (and the easier the terrain), the higher is the chance to complete the move. I have not been able to determine if having additional units beside the crew makes the task easier.

I loved playing your scenarios: they are challenging whatever side you take, and this is not an easy accomplishment to achieve. I am sorry I was unable to play the first one, because I really cannot understand why most (but not all) AI tanks stay sitting in place: in "Death at Strudanka", the setup is similar (all VP hexes are Russian-controlled at start) but the panzers move forward to attack [&:][&:].

Peter already stated he will improve AI aggressiveness in Update 2 and I'm sure he will solve this issue as he has already done with many others (e.g. the dreaded double OBA bug, which prevents the Germans from using both OBA in "Death at Strudanka",

Cheers

UP844 [Carlo]

[Peter Fisla]

Regarding AI AFV units, just sitting there and doing nothing. Can you please supply saved game file please, I will take a look and see what's going on.

[Peter Fisla]

ORIGINAL: UP844

The scenario is "JP001 - No Other Choice".

Here are the scenario settings: the German AI is set to "ADVANCE". Individual German AFVs have no AI special orders, but even when I give them the "ATTACK" order they remain in their setup hexes. At most, they start and stop in the hex (with the occasional Panther D self-destructing [:D]).

ATTACK order is only available to configure for an AI unit in the scenario editor, if the AI side is HOLD...it is not available if the AI side is on ADVANCE.

[UP844]

The ATTACK order is available even if the AI attitude is ADVANCE, but I forgot to read the warning stating AI orders have no effect in this case [8|].

In a further attempt to find some logical reason for the AI behaviour, I measured the range to the nearest VP hex at start. Such range is 13 hexes for the Panther G on the left, 12 hexes for the Pz IV in the centre and 12 hexes for the Pz IVH on the left (not shown in the screen). The latter (and its accompanying 251/9) is the only German tank that moves.

I'll post the saved game in a few minutes.

[Peter Fisla]

ORIGINAL: UP844

The ATTACK order is available even if the AI attitude is ADVANCE, but I forgot to read the warning stating AI orders have no effect in this case [8|].

Are you running the latest editor posted in the forum? Also please see page 47 of the manual for details.

ORIGINAL: UP844
In a further attempt to find some logical reason for the AI behaviour, I measured the range to the nearest VP hex at start. Such range is 13 hexes for the Panther G on the left, 12 hexes for the Pz IV in the centre and 12 hexes for the Pz IVH on the left (not shown in the screen). The latter (and its accompanying 251/9) is the only German tank that moves.

I'll post the saved game in a few minutes.

Thanks

[UP844]

I am running version 0.2.60: have I missed an update while I was away? [&:]

In the attached file there are four saved games:
- the "Real_Game_Turn_2/3/4" files are three saves at the start of the German tutn in a normal game session: the left and centre panzers don't move as usual (even though one of them killed a careless T-34/76 which came too close to the centre ones);
- the "Demo_game_Turn_4" is saved in a game session where I never fired or moved units, except for the infantry in 24,12, which I moved away: here, the left wing panzers moved at last... on turn 4 (in turns 2 and 3 they stood still, even if the Panther G had no targets at all).

I think I might have found a reason for the immobility of the left panzers: they are set up on wood/road hexes and the first one (the Panther G) has a target (the Russian squad in 24,12). So it fires and the vehicles behind don't move (even though the 251/9 and the Pz IV could easily take the road on their right to exit the forest. Since the above squad is in a stone building, the chances of hurting it are pretty slim (in fact, in the real game it took 8 fire phases with no effect at all): in my opinion, the Panther is wasting time with these shots. This does not explain, however, why the centre panzers don't move, as the leading Pz IV does not normally fire on anybody (and even when it does - see above - this doesn't seem enough to wake its crew).

On a side note, would it be possible to avoid the start/stop sequence for vehicles that have no chance to move? This would prevent unnecessary breakdowns of unreliable vehicles.

[Peter Fisla]

ORIGINAL: UP844

I am running version 0.2.60: have I missed an update while I was away? [&:]

See here for 02.61: tm.asp?m=4082403

ORIGINAL: UP844
In the attached file there are four saved games:
- the "Real_Game_Turn_2/3/4" files are three saves at the start of the German tutn in a normal game session: the left and centre panzers don't move as usual (even though one of them killed a careless T-34/76 which came too close to the centre ones);
- the "Demo_game_Turn_4" is saved in a game session where I never fired or moved units, except for the infantry in 24,12, which I moved away: here, the left wing panzers moved at last... on turn 4 (in turns 2 and 3 they stood still, even if the Panther G had no targets at all).

I think I might have found a reason for the immobility of the left panzers: they are set up on wood/road hexes and the first one (the Panther G) has a target (the Russian squad in 24,12). So it fires and the vehicles behind don't move (even though the 251/9 and the Pz IV could easily take the road on their right to exit the forest. Since the above squad is in a stone building, the chances of hurting it are pretty slim (in fact, in the real game it took 8 fire phases with no effect at all): in my opinion, the Panther is wasting time with these shots. This does not explain, however, why the centre panzers don't move, as the leading Pz IV does not normally fire on anybody (and even when it does - see above - this doesn't seem enough to wake its crew).

Well, so AI won't drive vehicles through buildings or through woods since the vehicles can seriously bog down. So this is really a scenario design issue. It is important to set up paths to VPOs that are accessible by AI AFV units. See the manual 8.3 Appendix C - Terrain Effect Chart for details.

ORIGINAL: UP844
On a side note, would it be possible to avoid the start/stop sequence for vehicles that have no chance to move? This would prevent unnecessary breakdowns of unreliable vehicles.

Hmmm, let me look into this...

[UP844]

ORIGINAL: Peter Fisla

So this is really a scenario design issue. It is important to set up paths to VPOs that are accessible by AI AFV units.

Unfortunately, I am afraid this is not the case. I modified the scenario map and deleted all the trees in the setup areas of the left and centre panzer groups (see the attached .scn file). Now they have a clear and unhindered path to the area where VP hexes are located, but they still don't move (with the exception of the right group, of course [:)]).

Since all the VP hexes are building hexes, I have thought this might also be the reason for their immobility, but:
a) the right group moves immediately towards the nearest VP hex (which is in a wooden building hex)
b) VP hexes are also in building hexes in the two other scenarios made by Big Ivan where attacking tanks move towards the enemy (as they should).

I also took notes about the behavior of the only Panther appearing on the left.
From turn #1 to turn #5 it fired on the Russian squad in (5,12). On the German Fire Segment of turn 5, it finally managed to break the squad.
From turn #6 to turn #9 the Panther stood still, not even bothering to fire MGs on the Russian broken squad just to keep it at "Broken+" status.
On turn #10 it resumed firing and finally, on turn #12 it managed to kill the squad.
On turn #13 the Panther finally moved forward to its demise by a Russian 76mm [:D]

I expected to see the other tanks surging out of the woods following the Panther, but none materialized and the game ended.

P.S. I know I am a huge pain in the back, but I'm doing this because I really love this game and I wish to see it improved.

[rico21]

Peter is right,
AI has a process,
A cook does not reveal the contents of his sauce,
Sometimes a design error is great sometimes not like the real life,
Each cook cooking differently for the most pleasure of players,
Amen

[marcdhanna]

ORIGINAL: UP844

ORIGINAL: Peter Fisla

So this is really a scenario design issue. It is important to set up paths to VPOs that are accessible by AI AFV units.

Unfortunately, I am afraid this is not the case. I modified the scenario map and deleted all the trees in the setup areas of the left and centre panzer groups (see the attached .scn file). Now they have a clear and unhindered path to the area where VP hexes are located, but they still don't move (with the exception of the right group, of course [:)]).

Since all the VP hexes are building hexes, I have thought this might also be the reason for their immobility, but:
a) the right group moves immediately towards the nearest VP hex (which is in a wooden building hex)
b) VP hexes are also in building hexes in the two other scenarios made by Big Ivan where attacking tanks move towards the enemy (as they should).

I also took notes about the behavior of the only Panther appearing on the left.
From turn #1 to turn #5 it fired on the Russian squad in (5,12). On the German Fire Segment of turn 5, it finally managed to break the squad.
From turn #6 to turn #9 the Panther stood still, not even bothering to fire MGs on the Russian broken squad just to keep it at "Broken+" status.
On turn #10 it resumed firing and finally, on turn #12 it managed to kill the squad.
On turn #13 the Panther finally moved forward to its demise by a Russian 76mm [:D]

I expected to see the other tanks surging out of the woods following the Panther, but none materialized and the game ended.

P.S. I know I am a huge pain in the back, but I'm doing this because I really love this game and I wish to see it improved.

If people think you are a 'pain in the back' because you are calling it like it is after some investigation, that would be a shame. Look at the effort you put in to 'design' the scenario to see if it could work based on the suggestions provided.

I have to agree with your attitude and the reason I did a few AAR is exactly the same motivation you have. To help develop the game. I'm not so sure it's worth the effort to do these AAR, as it sounds like Peter would prefer turn by turn game saves uploaded rather than such AAR. But the data in the AAR is similar to what you have specifically reported about a Panther from turns 1-13 and expectations about other tanks.

Rico mentions the 'secret sauce' of AI and it's a good metaphore but AI should not 'wag the dog' of scenario design too much.