F4F-7

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Leandros
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RE: F4F-7

Post by Leandros »

ORIGINAL: Buckrock

The more reliable sources (ie those that reference Greene) state it as 555 gallons carried in the wings. And as the quote I gave you earlier
from Lundstrom (who also references Greene) indicates, the total fuel carried for a fully loaded F4F-7 was 685 gallons, contained in the
wings as well as the fuselage tank.

Just a bit of online research would probably save you a lot of wasted effort at this point. You might even find out the weight you're after.
Or even why the USN were so disappointed with the aircraft that they gave it to the poor Marines.

Thank you, I asked specifically because other sources state total fuel as 555 gls. There might be some misunderstanding, that the main tank,
because it is located in the center wing area, under the cockpit, is understood as "in the wings" (it held approx 105 gls.). Also the aux.
tank (behind the cockpit) was allegedly removed to make space for the camera (this tank held approx. 47 gls.)

This should add up to approx. 450 gls. for the newly installed wing tanks. Or I could be wrong. I have ordered a technical manual for the F4F-3
to get a better picture of it.

Fred




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RE: F4F-7

Post by Buckrock »

ORIGINAL: Leandros
Thank you,....
LOL. You mean thanks but no thanks. For what it's worth, the information I'm passing on is based on official Grumman figures not on someone's
imagination.
I asked specifically because other sources state total fuel as 555 gls. There might be some misunderstanding, that the main tank,
because it is located in the center wing area, under the cockpit, is understood as "in the wings" (it held approx 105 gls.). Also the aux.
tank (behind the cockpit) was allegedly removed to make space for the camera (this tank held approx. 47 gls.)
I think there is definitely a misunderstanding. The main tank sat in the fuselage below the pilot's seat position. Any source that could
confuse that for "in the wings" of an F4F would not be a source worth using.
This should add up to approx. 450 gls. for the newly installed wing tanks. Or I could be wrong. I have ordered a technical manual for the F4F-3
to get a better picture of it.
Logic would say you are either wrong about that wing capacity or else the F4F-7 compared to its fighter stablemates really was overweight
even when unfueled. And if you're using approximates for the F4F-7's fuel capacity, you'll never be able to unravel its weight.

However I'm sure the F4F-3 tech manual will get you going in the right direction.
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RE: F4F-7

Post by Leandros »

ORIGINAL: Buckrock
ORIGINAL: Leandros
Thank you,....
LOL. You mean thanks but no thanks. For what it's worth, the information I'm passing on is based on official Grumman figures not on someone's
imagination.
Take it as you like. That said, I have the JustFlight info and I see now that I didn't read it properly. Your numbers were correct - as far as
JustFlight goes, anyway....[;)]

Fred
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RE: F4F-7

Post by m10bob »

Funny how innocent questions can provoke hot responses amongst friends.

Anyway, here is a good site with good info on the entire F4F family.

http://www.uswarplanes.net/wildcat.html

In research, I learned the F4F7 did have an autopilot, but not other models.

**I also learned ALL USN carrier borne planes enjoyed an advantage the Japanese never had. The American planes had a homing device on their planes which could detect a signal from their carriers within approx 60 miles, and each carrier had its' own frequency, which certainly aided in even night recoveries!

You will note some of these planes (like the Martlets and F4f7) saved weight with fixed wings which allowed an extra 55 gallons of fuel.

Here is my two cents...We gamers might even find a way to simulate that "homing device" into the game by adding a notch to the planes' armor rating...or something?

Regarding Auto-pilots...The TBF/TBM series all had them, as did the SBD's and Helldivers.
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RE: F4F-7

Post by Buckrock »

While the website covers all the Wildcat models, I think it would lack the detail for what Leandros is attempting.

And the USN homing device you mentioned had a theoretical range determined by a receiving aircraft's altitude and atmospheric conditions.
At 20,000 ft, an aircraft could pick up the signal over 200 miles away if the war gods were in a generous mood.
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RE: F4F-7

Post by m10bob »

ORIGINAL: Buckrock

While the website covers all the Wildcat models, I think it would lack the detail for what Leandros is attempting.

And the USN homing device you mentioned had a theoretical range determined by a receiving aircraft's altitude and atmospheric conditions.
At 20,000 ft, an aircraft could pick up the signal over 200 miles away if the war gods were in a generous mood.

At the bottom of that site is a link to the main home page...Many other planes but nothing on the old Devestator?...
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RE: F4F-7

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Grumman F4F-3P and F4F-7

I’ve done some home-work on this. It interests me, also because there are so many discrepancies between the various available sources - and postings here. My main references are a couple of Grumman manuals on the F4F-3, Greene and Denn’s publications and excerpts from a VMO-251 web-site.

Before I get back to technical details I’d just like to clear up the (lack of) connection between the -3P and the -7, they were, as mentioned here in another posting, quite different airplanes, originating from different needs. The -3P was not dropped on the Marines because the Navy didn’t need it or wanted to use it.

The -3P was an emergency project, originating from a need created by the upcoming US counter-strike into The Solomons (Guadalcanal). The planners of that operation needed (photographic) information on the enemy positions there, and the Navy had little resources available for the purpose. A simple rebuild of some F4F-3s was the result and the Marines VMO-251 (M: Miscellaneous, O: Observation) squadron was hastily equipped with these and sent to the South Pacific.

The main modification of F4F-3P was the removal of the auxiliary fuel tank behind the cockpit, reducing the fuel capacity to 117 gls., and the installation of a Fairchild F-56 camera in its position. Weapons were retained but one source states that two of the wing guns were removed to lighten it – which was supposed to be done when flown as a bomber, too.

As it were, VMO-251’s first station was Noumea, New Caledonia, too far away for the modified Wildcat to reach The Solomons. They were instead used for the defense of that base. The same when they moved north to Esperito Santo, closer to the Solomons. Even from there they could not fly their original missions. From there the history is somewhat clouded but at least some of them probably participated in the defense of Henderson field, Guadalcanal.

Their photo missions were finally fulfilled by borrowing B-17’s from MacArthur’s “Air Force”, with VMO-251 personnel manning the cameras.

The -7 was a much more advanced project and meant to be used from carriers. To that I would like to add that one doesn’t have to fly all missions with maximum fuel….

The main modifications were:

To make the wings “wet”, in effect using wing space for fuel - no tanks as such, resulting in a fuel capacity of 555 US gallons in the wings.
Removal of the auxiliary tank – normally holding 27 US gallons (with self-sealing installed), to make space for a camera.
Installation of a Fairchild F-56 camera behind and little to the left of the cockpit
No armaments
Removal of pilot and oil tank armour. If this is to be taken all the way it would also result in 13 gallons increase in fuel capacity in the center (old main) tank – by removal of the self-sealing materials. Most probable as this was also known to contaminate the fuel.
Installation of a Sperry autopilot
Installation of a double fuel-dump system
Installation of an extra oil tank

Notes: As a standard the F4F—3 had a GF-5 radio installation with a special radio direction finder incorporated. Would the -7 have had any additional navigation equipment?

And, for those worried about this, the F4F had a “relief tube” as standard. Mounted under the seat, emptying through the bottom of the plane.

The only actual weight I have for the -7 is the allowable MTOW – 10.328 lbs. and the “empty” weight (Greene). What would have been nice to have is its “operational” empty weight. That is, “gross” - less fuel.

We can, of course, do it the simple way. If we presume that the MTOW was finalized at 10.328 lbs simply to get weight space for the actual fuel tankage, the Operational Empty Weight would be: 6.300 lbs. To reach that number I have retracted 685 gls. fuel (4.080 lbs.) – self-sealing material removed from the “center” tank, increasing its capacity marginally.

This looks reasonable. Standard (normal fighter) gross weight for the F4F-3 was 6.864 lbs inclusive of armour, self-sealing tanks, pilot and his paraphernalias, 110 gls. of fuel (660 lbs.), weapons and some ammo (526 lbs.), flotation gear, etc. Greene, in Profile Publications no. 53, quotes “empty” weight for F4F-7 as 5.456 lbs. That is 240 lbs more than what he quotes for the “normal” F4F-3A, but the -7 would not have weight additions for armament. This adds up to a little more than 500 lbs., depending on how much ammo you load up with. It is not known whether Greene’s empty weight on the “normal” Wildcat included armour. What this means is that the modifications weighed more than the removal of armor, armaments and flotation gear. It is not known whether the empty weight includes the camera, approx. 60 lbs. Radios, etc., are normally not included in the “empty” weight.

To see it from another perspective, if the only difference in added “operational” weight was armaments, the F4F-7 would have an advantage (in being lighter) in OEW (four MG’s and “normal” fighter ammo load = 526 lbs.).

I shall elaborate a little on this in a while.

Fred
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RE: F4F-7

Post by witpqs »

Marines VMO-251 (M: Miscellaneous, O: Observation)
Don't know about the rest of the information, but the "M" in the designation of Marine squadrons was/is for "Marine" AFAIK. You will note, for example, that all the Marine squadrons have an "M" in the designation. For example, VF is a USN fighter squadron while VMF is a USMC fighter squadron. The same pertains to other types.
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RE: F4F-7

Post by Leandros »

ORIGINAL: witpqs
Marines VMO-251 (M: Miscellaneous, O: Observation)
Don't know about the rest of the information, but the "M" in the designation of Marine squadrons was/is for "Marine" AFAIK. You will note, for example, that all the Marine squadrons have an "M" in the designation. For example, VF is a USN fighter squadron while VMF is a USMC fighter squadron. The same pertains to other types.
Yes, you're right - it should either be "M" or "O" as the last letter.

Thank you!

Fred
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Saving MacArthur - a book series on how The Philippines were saved - in 1942! https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07D3 ... rw_dp_labf
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RE: F4F-7

Post by Buckrock »

ORIGINAL: Leandros

Grumman F4F-3P and F4F-7

I’ve done some home-work on this. It interests me, also because there are so many discrepancies between the various available sources - and postings here. My main references are a couple of Grumman manuals on the F4F-3, Greene and Denn’s publications and excerpts from a VMO-251 web-site.

Before I get back to technical details I’d just like to clear up the (lack of) connection between the -3P and the -7, they were, as mentioned here in another posting, quite different airplanes, originating from different needs. The -3P was not dropped on the Marines because the Navy didn’t need it or wanted to use it.
Since you're focusing on the two versions, its probably worth noting one other interesting difference. The Marine F4F-3P was actually used
for carrier reconnaissance missions during its career while the naval F4F-7 never was despite it being designed for that specific role.
The -3P was an emergency project, originating from a need created by the upcoming US counter-strike into The Solomons (Guadalcanal). The planners of that operation needed (photographic) information on the enemy positions there, and the Navy had little resources available for the purpose. A simple rebuild of some F4F-3s was the result and the Marines VMO-251 (M: Miscellaneous, O: Observation) squadron was hastily equipped with these and sent to the South Pacific.
I'm not sure it could be called an emergency project. VMO units were supposed to contain at least some camera equipped aircraft. According
to VMO-251's records, it received the first F4F-3s early in April '42 and the first photo-recon modifications were ordered before the end of that
month. On the other hand, the detail planning for Operation Watchtower (Guadalcanal/Tulagi) was only begun after the Battle of Midway.
Their photo missions were finally fulfilled by borrowing B-17’s from MacArthur’s “Air Force”, with VMO-251 personnel manning the cameras.
The B-17s didn't have to be borrowed from Mac. SOPAC command had its own 11th BG carry out the missions.
The -7 was a much more advanced project and meant to be used from carriers. To that I would like to add that one doesn’t have to fly all missions with maximum fuel….
Have you factored in the impact on the narrow stance F4F of large fuel loads shifting in partially filled wing tanks during take-off? It was
remarked upon during initial testing at NAS Anacostia, in NAFC ferry pilot reports and in a Saratoga pilot's comments on his 5 hour "jaunt"
in a F4F-7 on July 8th '42. It didn't sound favourable.
Notes: As a standard the F4F—3 had a GF-5 radio installation with a special radio direction finder incorporated. Would the -7 have had any additional navigation equipment?
Like much of the F4F's other radio equipment in '42, the early GF/RU units had a poor reputation in regards to reliability. In carrier combat
reports of the period, signal strength rather than bearing was the only factor mentioned as being useful. And that still required a USN TF to
broadcast on an intermediate frequency, something they would be loathe to do other than for very short durations. Dead reckoning with a
final assist by the relatively reliable YE/ZB VHF beacon would be the most likely navigation method for a F4F pilot to find his carrier.

As for the F4F-7, there is no mention in the VF reports or those who received the aircraft as a navy hand-me-down (VMO-251 and VMD-154) of
it having any special navigation equipment beyond that of a standard F4F. It's worth noting too that when the ex-navy F4F-7s were flown by
VMO-251 from the New Hebrides to Guadalcanal to begin operations, they had to be guided to their destination by a B-17 for the length of the
600 mile flight, just like the F4F-4's (with drop tanks) were.
I shall elaborate a little on this in a while.

Fred
A few other things to consider before you muse further on this nimble little beast's ability to dance past a frustrated enemy. Firstly, the
F4F-7 suffered more aerodynamic drag due to its fuel dump outlets than a F4F-3 suffered from its wing guns, so you may find that the F4F-7s
top speed was still inferior to the F4F-3 even when lighter.

Secondly, any long range missions launched from a USN carrier well outside the limits of Japanese patrol aircraft range would likely have required
the F4F-7 to still be carrying a large weight of fuel when it reached the target.

And finally, have you actually checked the altitude at which the navy needed the F4F-7 to take its happy snaps of the enemy? It may not have been
what you think it is.



Edited - because Marine VMD units probably don't want to be called VD units.
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RE: F4F-7

Post by Buckrock »

ORIGINAL: Leandros
The only actual weight I have for the -7 is the allowable MTOW – 10.328 lbs. and the “empty” weight (Greene). What would have been nice to have is its “operational” empty weight. That is, “gross” - less fuel.

We can, of course, do it the simple way. If we presume that the MTOW was finalized at 10.328 lbs simply to get weight space for the actual fuel tankage, the Operational Empty Weight would be: 6.300 lbs. To reach that number I have retracted 685 gls. fuel (4.080 lbs.) – self-sealing material removed from the “center” tank, increasing its capacity marginally.
OK, you may be tripping yourself up here. The 10,328lbs you always see mentioned for this aircraft comes from Grumman's design specification.
Those specifications did not include things like allowable maximum take off weight (MTOW), only empty weights or mission gross weights. According
to Lundstrom, this weight was for a fully loaded F4F-7. That is a pilot, all mission equipment, oil and the full 685 gallon fuel load.

So you now have your fully loaded recon mission F4F-7 which weighs 6,300lbs without fuel.
This looks reasonable. Standard (normal fighter) gross weight for the F4F-3 was 6.864 lbs inclusive of armour, self-sealing tanks, pilot and his paraphernalias, 110 gls. of fuel (660 lbs.), weapons and some ammo (526 lbs.), flotation gear, etc.
And your F4F-3 loaded for a normal fighter mission weighs 6,864lbs (which includes a fuel weight of 110 gallons).

So you probably now have everything you need to compare your two aircraft. Either remove the F4F-3's 110 gallon fuel load (660lbs) or add the same
fuel load to the F4F-7 so that the two aircraft become comparable for the same fuel condition.

I'd say the F4F-7 was 100lbs heavier than the F4F-3 under those conditions.

Edited for clarification.
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RE: F4F-7

Post by Leandros »


Take-off

To proceed with our analysis, let’s take a general look at the Wildcat’s take-off parameters, there has been posters here that imply that this aircraft could not take off from a carrier. As I have no official take-off specs other than that of the “normal” Wildcat I shall make a preliminary comparison.

I have a Navy Dept. document on the F4F-3 “land” from Oct. 14th 1942. The max. F4F-3 take-off weight referred to there is 8.361 lbs, a configuration with two drop tanks. It states the following take-off lengths for that weight:

Zero wind: 736 feet
15 kts. Headwind: 480 feet
25 kts. headwind: 330 feet

As an example, the flight deck of Enterprise was more than 700 feet long, Saratoga’s more than 800 feet. I’m not very acquainted with carrier operations but as I understand it, it was routine to turn into the wind when launching, and increase speed. Enterprise could easily make 25 knots, as could Saratoga. I should also think there was rarely less than a 5-10 kts. wind on the open sea.

It would have been nice with some official parameters/graphs on the F4F-7, other than the MTOW. In the mean-time I shall get back with some practical examples, using the 6.300 lbs. OEW I suggested in my previous posting.

Fred
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RE: F4F-7

Post by Buckrock »

ORIGINAL: Leandros

Take-off

To proceed with our analysis, let’s take a general look at the Wildcat’s take-off parameters, there has been posters here that imply that this aircraft could not take off from a carrier.
AFAIK, no one has implied that. What was stated is that a fully loaded F4F-7 could not take off from a carrier without assistance from a
head-wind. This was stated in Lundstrom's book as "special wind conditions", implying more than the standard used for carrier operations.

It's also worth adding that this did not neccessarily mean a fully loaded take off was otherwise impossible within the deck length of a
US Fleet Carrier but rather that it was not possible to do while also keeping the required "margin of safety" set for US deck operations.
If you want to better understand what this meant, have a look around for sources detailing any of the Fleet's fights with the BuAer over
an aircraft's specified "ideal" take off distance for a given weight vs what was found in the field. IIRC, the SB2C-1C was a classic case
for this.
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RE: F4F-7

Post by m10bob »

ORIGINAL: Buckrock
ORIGINAL: Leandros

Take-off

To proceed with our analysis, let’s take a general look at the Wildcat’s take-off parameters, there has been posters here that imply that this aircraft could not take off from a carrier.
AFAIK, no one has implied that. What was stated is that a fully loaded F4F-7 could not take off from a carrier without assistance from a
head-wind. This was stated in Lundstrom's book as "special wind conditions", implying more than the standard used for carrier operations.

It's also worth adding that this did not neccessarily mean a fully loaded take off was otherwise impossible within the deck length of a
US Fleet Carrier but rather that it was not possible to do while also keeping the required "margin of safety" set for US deck operations.
If you want to better understand what this meant, have a look around for sources detailing any of the Fleet's fights with the BuAer over
an aircraft's specified "ideal" take off distance for a given weight vs what was found in the field. IIRC, the SB2C-1C was a classic case
for this.
When were deck catapults installed?
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RE: F4F-7

Post by Buckrock »

As far as I know, all the USN CV's that served in the Pacific in '42 had flight deck catapults but these would not capable of launching an aircraft with the weight of a fully loaded F4F-7, if that was what you were asking. More powerful catapults that equipped US carriers later in the war could have but by then far more capable carrier photo-recon aircraft with much shorter take-off runs were available for use anyway.

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RE: F4F-7

Post by MakeeLearn »

F4F-7 Loss record.

I dont know for certain the key.

The options are u , s , m , d ,empty

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RE: F4F-7

Post by Buckrock »

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn

F4F-7 Loss record.

I dont know for certain the key.

The options are u , s , m , d ,empty

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S = Pilot saved, U = Unknown (no details), M = Pilot Missing, D = Pilot Deceased.

Interestingly, the VF-6 loss from the Enterprise (Lt. Vorse) on 8/24/42 may be an error as records show that the pilot ditched in an F4F-4 on that day while the Enterprise's only F4F-7 remained below deck. A few days later, the F4F-7 was flown off and handed over to the Marines. It was then destroyed in early September '42 when a VMO-251 pilot lost control of it and crashed during an attempt to fly it from Espiritu Santo to Guadalcanal.
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RE: F4F-7

Post by Leandros »

USS Enterprise - Catapults - Flight Deck:

One: H MK II (7000 lbs to 70 mph in 55-ft)
Two: H 2-1 (11,000 lbs to 70 mph in 73-ft)

Conforms with the MTOW of the SBD, too - 10.700 lbs.

Fred

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RE: F4F-7

Post by Buckrock »

And if you look at the hyperlink you provided, the H 2-1 catapults are listed as part of the Post-1943 Refit (Bremerton) with the Enterprise only having the H MK II (7000lb) prior to that.
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RE: F4F-7

Post by Leandros »

ORIGINAL: Buckrock

And if you look at the hyperlink you provided, the H 2-1 catapults are listed as part of the Post-1943 Refit (Bremerton) with the Enterprise only having the H MK II (7000lb) prior to that.

Indeed.

Fred
River Wide, Ocean Deep - a book on Operation Sea Lion - www.fredleander.com
Saving MacArthur - a book series on how The Philippines were saved - in 1942! https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07D3 ... rw_dp_labf
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