Defending France....options...

[Vanman]

Ok, we all know this is largely an act of futility, and yet making the best of a bad situation is important. Two thoughts:

Although land units are obviously priority, I decided once to make a concerted effort at challenging the Luftwaffe's air superiority
by buying as many fighters as I could (within reason). It might have been bad luck, but they just kept getting shot out of the sky.

Frontline Artillery is a beautiful thing if it can avoid the ground strike. Nothing hampers a German offensive more than a flew flipped Panzers.

Any thoughts?

[Jagdtiger14]

Heavy CW commitment. With a little luck and depending on the Axis early decisions, you might be able to make it to S/O'40...and with some weather/turn end luck you might make it into '41. I've seen this a few times. This is why I like to start on France early as the Axis.

[Joseignacio]

Pray.

And I use to bring two full stacks BEF, HQ+corps+div/art.

Once I saw the GE player was dedicated to Yugoslavia and Greece before France. In this case, the FR player saw he would not have problems in 39 so he bought for the long term. He got all artilleries. When the GE player came in 40 there was not a single hex out of the Maginot line he could attack without an AA for the planes or an AT/AA for tanks, specially because there was an advanced defense in Belgium, reducing the front (IIRW). Plus, every front stack could be supported by a field ART from behind.

It was a disaster for the GE, finally he only could make it with o-CHITS, but such gifts are not usual, I would buy fighters preferently to bombers because interdicting his ground strikes is crucial, not so much for you to make them, you don't need so dearly bombers, it¡s true it's much more effective a point in defense than several in attack, but you'll have few options to go through with all the luftwaffe...

If you rather mix british and french stacks you might have difficulties for an unprobable brit counterattack but, since that won't happen (99/100 times), having them mixed will allow british planes to defend those hexes.

I would use field artillery in a different way:

- the way you are proposing fixes the Art in the hex, so you'll lose it sooner than in the second line which might hold.
- with fine weather you can have a 30% -40% possibilities to hit each unit, while if you are effective suporting an defence, or/and he makes a bad roll, you will flip not one unit but all the front!

And remember that in any of those cases, a minimally witty GE player will carry several powerful HQ, so the Arts work (if lucky two of them can flip 2-3 units) will be for nothing, they can be restored, while three stack down many times cannot be restored or they use up all the Ge player remaining HQ, if he is lucky to still have them (many times some are spent restoring air units for future actions).

[Shannon V. OKeets]

1 - I strip the Med countries of French units and ship them home to hold the Italian portion of the front line. Losing some countries in North Africa to wandering Italian units doesn't matter as much as holding onto Paris for another turn. Let the Commonwealth deal with the Italians later. If the Italians go for Tunisia et al, that means they have to DOW France (US Entry help) and can't really put together any kind of an attack on Egypt. For me, in 1940 North Africa is a problem for another day - hopefully not until 1941.

2 - I leave the Maginot Line occupied until the very bitter end. Forcing the Germans to occupy the West Wall and loop around through Belgium when bringing in reinforcements and staying in supply justifies having the extended front line. Although leaving the Maginot Line reduces the number of hexes France has to defend the 'new' front line is almost entirely Clear terrain and hopeless for France to defend once its forces have been reduced: no air support, no armor, no AT, and no artillery left on the map.

I agree that using the ART to ground strike isn't a good idea in most situations. If the target hex has an HQ and Armor in clear terrain, well that might be juicy enough to tempt me to take a chance. But remember, Germany dearly loves having French units disorganized, so France self inflicting that state on its ART is always a plus for Germany.

[Centuur]

What's the "very bitter end", where French units in the Maginot Line are concerned? That's a very difficult one to answer. Sometimes I leave those units sitting there, sometimes I don't. I still haven't found a good solution for this one.
You don't want to get surrounded in that position, I believe. But if one withdraws too early, one tends to give Germany the chance to get rid of those units quite easily. There is no good answer for this one at all.

However: it's very, very dangerous to give Italy the chance to cross the Alps. So defend those passes until Paris has fallen...

Toulouse and Lyons are fortresses in the mountains (especially the first one) and should be defended at all costs to force Germany into declaring Vichy. So make sure some French units survive the onslaught and end up in Toulouse...

But here is something else to consider. When at start Germany isn't putting a unit in all hexes next to the Maginot Line, start calculating if an attack on Germany in the French surprise impulse might give you the chance of aligning Yugoslavia. It's the best way to buy time for France, but don't fritter away your precious units and withdraw immediately out of Germany after you've aligned Yugoslavia. You can give them a 0,25 multiplier for one turn in exchange for the Yugoslavian army on the French side, but 0,5 production multiplier is a little too much IMHO...

[Jagdtiger14]

But here is something else to consider. When at start Germany isn't putting a unit in all hexes next to the Maginot Line

As the German player, I would never let this happen in any of my games[8|]

However, the alignment of Yugo to France does not necessarily buy France more time unless the Axis player allows that to happen. There are also some other negatives (which I wont discuss at the moment) for the Allies besides the production bump for Germany (can mean Guderian comes in M/J'40, and still get most of the normal German builds). But the over all long term net result is negative for Germany (especially if taken by surprise by this eh-hem).

[Dabrion]

What good does a Vichy Yugoslavia though?

[Centuur]

ORIGINAL: Dabrion

What good does a Vichy Yugoslavia though?

But that's not important, isn't it?
This game is all about messing up the Axis timetable. Aligning Yugoslavia robs Germany of a possible ally (with a good army and two factories available to Germany if they can align them later in the game).
Also, the country is a nightmare where partisans are concerned. Germany needs to garrison the place to prevent those guys from messing up things.
Which German player will allow Yugoslavia to stay alive until France is Vichied? Italy, Albania and Germany has a border with Yugoslavia. That border will need to be guarded, thus tying up units which are needed elsewhere in 1939-1940. And there are resources available for the German war economy if Yugoslavia becomes active.
Finally, France gets 2 extra production points out of Yugoslavia.

The downside is the production multiple of Germany which becomes 0.25 higher for one turn and the possible removal of a US entry chit. But those are insignificant to the advantages to France, I believe.

[Dabrion]

Yes, I can see the reasoning about the production boost for France. I am not sure though it is worth to risk a '39 chit (unless you have managed to convert the high value chits to tension already). After all US wins the war not France! But the situation is unusual to begin with.

p.s.: production multiple for enemy units in the HC is a RAW7 anachronism

[Centuur]

ORIGINAL: Dabrion

Yes, I can see the reasoning about the production boost for France. I am not sure though it is worth to risk a '39 chit (unless you have managed to convert the high value chits to tension already). After all US wins the war not France! But the situation is unusual to begin with.

p.s.: production multiple for enemy units in the HC is a RAW7 anachronism

You are right when you say the US wins the war. But I tend to see that players are really not prepared to act on opportunities, because the US might be delayed to enter the war, if they are able to upset the Axis timetable.

IMHO the Allies have won the game, if France survives into 1941. Is it possible that that happens? Yes, if the Axis are sloppy on defense and the Allies are prepared to exploit these weaknesses.

Axis players tend to think that they cannot be harmed by the Allies in 1939 or 1940. This sometimes makes them (and I speak out of bitter experience [;)] ) think that they don't have to pay attention to defense...

[Dabrion]

From early axis POV, the sensible openings for GE are either France or Yugo first. What puzzles me is only the circumstances

From early ally POV, in general I agree with the time table disruption. I just think the best timetable disruption is to ensure a Husky threat by summer/autumn '42.
Loosing '39 chits is really really bad (not only on that premise)!


Back to topic:
France is basically indefensible. I have never seen a competent GE fail on France. The commodity we are talking about is time (in impulses delayed). Here couple of thoughts:
* leave the Metz/Strasbourg pocket intact. reduce to only Metz + the mountain hex when you need the bodies for the Seine line
* move one hexrow into Belgium, for the straight frontline and the roll and the impulses it buys.
* defend Belgium riverlines, can bait an OC (not really doable if GE takes Netherlands first)
* fall back to the Seine line once the figth in the north is lost, figth for the southern hexes on Paris
* leave Lille manned with two units. Will likely be ignored.. but slows the western approach to Paris (same reasoning as Metz).
It is all about a fighting withdrawl. Keep your lines straight where possible. Don't waste the little air assets you have. If you give away Lille or the Metz pocket too early bad things can happen (like complete conquest)!

[Joseignacio]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

1 - I strip the Med countries of French units and ship them home to hold the Italian portion of the front line. Losing some countries in North Africa to wandering Italian units doesn't matter as much as holding onto Paris for another turn. Let the Commonwealth deal with the Italians later. If the Italians go for Tunisia et al, that means they have to DOW France (US Entry help) and can't really put together any kind of an attack on Egypt. For me, in 1940 North Africa is a problem for another day - hopefully not until 1941.

2 - I leave the Maginot Line occupied until the very bitter end. Forcing the Germans to occupy the West Wall and loop around through Belgium when bringing in reinforcements and staying in supply justifies having the extended front line. Although leaving the Maginot Line reduces the number of hexes France has to defend the 'new' front line is almost entirely Clear terrain and hopeless for France to defend once its forces have been reduced: no air support, no armor, no AT, and no artillery left on the map.

I used to do 1) but it seems we got it wrong. A couple of units won't change the bitter end and, when France falls, it's important to have the colonies defended so that those units can be an obstacle for the weak italian stacks that use to run amok in northern Africa, controlling these territories and getting their resuources. If they hold, they can be a great help to the american attack to Italy afterwards.

2 I always keep the Maginot till it's no longer defendable, but instead of leaving garrisons there, I put two Garr in Metz and leave there a couple of faster units of the same combat value, like a cavalry and a fast infantry/weak MOT, so they can rejoin or block the germans when they are blitzing and then envolving Paris. The rest surviving Garrs still block the possible GE movements on that area for some time or at least slow them till it's no longer important that they pass, and there is a mountain hex behind if you need to keep them blocked.

[Joseignacio]

ORIGINAL: Dabrion

What good does a Vichy Yugoslavia though?

I didn't realize that, because Austria was PART OF GE instead of Conquered/Annexed? like Czechslovakia, then GE had a border with Yu (¡!)

So the French player did it once, and retreated inmediately. It was the first french impulse, I had to defend Austria for all the GE-FR war. Only later it became Vichy.

I wonder if he could have selected IT instead, since it was still neutral, but it is a Major so I guess not.

[Joseignacio]

ORIGINAL: Dabrion

Yes, I can see the reasoning about the production boost for France. I am not sure though it is worth to risk a '39 chit (unless you have managed to convert the high value chits to tension already). After all US wins the war not France! But the situation is unusual to begin with.

p.s.: production multiple for enemy units in the HC is a RAW7 anachronism

And however, it's not so far away in time and it's what happens in MWIF (I guess) because it's based in RAW7.

[Centuur]

Like Steve, I withdraw as many French units I can out of French overseas possessions. The CW can handle the defense of French North Africa.

[Viktor_Kormel_slith]

I have played like french many times and in my experience the best defences is a conservative one, I use to take home the african units except territorials or the unit in Argel. I use to demand a heavy CW comitments (BEF, 3 to 5 corps). Like we use to play with 2D10 (but no art units)I use to play on offensive with french and CW planes trying to face down german units in the first line. Sometimes if you are lucky you can´t stop germans before they can attack. I never left the maginot line and the italian frontier unprotected until Paris have fallen, it is very dangerous, a good german player can concquer France if you risk too much.
In every way, luck is the main factor. Luck in weather, end of turn and above all, german attack rolls. If german player is a lucky one there is nothing the french player can do.
Sometimes happen strange things but it very unusual. For exmple in one of my last games France resisted until 1941 (german attacked in may/jun 1940, short turns, bad weather and very unlucky german rolls). Surprisingly Axis won the game using sitzkrieg strategy. But the most bizarre game I ever have played was one which France never was conquered, with raw 4 or 5. Germany invaded succesfully UK before attack France, we left the game in 1942, with usa- french army ready to counter attack, England and Wales conquered by Germany and sitzkrieg in east front. German player was very happy but the reality, in my opinion, was very dark for him. Well, the lesson is that sometimes the early french front gets very interesting.[:D]

[Joseignacio]

ORIGINAL: Centuur

Like Steve, I withdraw as many French units I can out of French overseas possessions. The CW can handle the defense of French North Africa.

Not after Vichy. ¿Or can they get earlier and keep the control? I understand they couldn't.

[Centuur]

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

ORIGINAL: Centuur

Like Steve, I withdraw as many French units I can out of French overseas possessions. The CW can handle the defense of French North Africa.

Not after Vichy. ¿Or can they get earlier and keep the control? I understand they couldn't.

Control of North Africa after Vichy gets declared isn't the point here. The point is to get as many units in France as possible, without giving up Syria and especially Algeria and Morocco to the Axis.

If the CW (who can't put his whole army in France) has units available, why not put those in Algeria and move the French INF out of Syria and North Africa into France?

It makes no difference to the Allies, if Vichy is declared with a French unit in Algeria, or a CW unit there, I believe.

[brian brian]

The answer is ... CW BPs & French anti-tank assets.

I move the Senegal MIL to France before the Algerian INF though.

[Centuur]

ORIGINAL: brian brian

The answer is ... CW BPs & French anti-tank assets.

I move the Senegal MIL to France before the Algerian INF though.

If you get that one, it has to go to France. It's a very good unit indeed.