Waffen SS ?

[Kharkov]

So is Matrix putting a block on showing SS units in the game?? WTF!

This leads to another question : Are they elite units in the game?

[DTC666]

Any wargame that claims to WWII and does not include the correct mix of units cannot be taken seriously. Just because German Law is trying to re write history by denying the SS existed is not a reason to not include the SS. They were there. Whats next the Pacific war without the Japanese because the may be offended?

[ILCK]

ORIGINAL: RodyMetal

I am not sure, who is seeing it as sensitive thing? Any wargamer? I doubt it.
I was happy with DC:B bold move to include more realistic WW2 activities , I thought we had progress and people start to view WW2 as part of any other historic event, the only prevention is some laws which I believe they will be removed in matter of time once majority agree that certain issues are not offensive to anyone anymore.

Havent played DCB yet, that sounds interesting. I would actually, for example, be ok if there was an event that charged the German player 20 MPP towards prosecution of the Final Solution since in fact it was a drain on German resources.

I do though get that when you are making business decisions you make the lowest common denominator decision and, especially with an editor, why make a decision that can offend part of your potential customer base. I don't think in OOB you can buy SS squads..at least not so far so this isn't unprecedented and like OOB SC isn't a detailed simulation.

With the German hate crime laws would merely having SS units be enough to trigger them given that other games like the Decisive Battle games, even the one I have, does include it?

[Hellfirejet]

The 2nd SS Panzer Division Das Reich was an elite division of the Nazi Waffen-SS during World War II. It was one of the thirty-eight divisions fielded by the Waffen-SS. Das Reich served during the invasion of France and took part in several major battles on the Eastern Front, including in the Battle of Prokhorovka against the 5th Guards Tank Army at the Battle of Kursk. It was then transferred to the West and took part in the fighting in Normandy and the Battle of the Bulge, ending the war in Hungary and Austria.

[elmo3]

The game is supposed to have an easy to use editor. Just add Waffen SS units if you want them.

[Hellfirejet]

Yes altering the name of units is easy in the editor,but that ain't enough,SS Army,Corps and Division's were for the most part better equipped etc,plus you would have to create new Black Unit counters to represent them,since that is the norm with the vast majority of world war 2 wargames.[;)]

[Hubert Cater]

Thanks for the feedback here everyone one and I just wanted to quickly jump in here and mention that I honestly can't even remember the last time the topic of the Waffen SS has even come up, internally or externally such as a thread like this, when it comes to the Strategic Command series.

I only mention that since as far as I remember the game series has never included Waffen SS units (I had to double check Assault on Communism as that was mentioned above and I don't see them there either) and I believe this was based on a decision probably from about 15 years ago where some felt their inclusion had too much of a negative connotation as Bill alluded to above as well. After that we probably just moved on to the other million and one things that need to get included/done/finished for each game we produce.

Essentially, our only point here is that this was never a recent topic of internal discussion between the development team, development team and Matrix, and/or even in Beta, and that they never at one time existed and were then removed. I really couldn't tell you what German law has to say about them either to be honest.

With this in mind, I hope it paints a picture that this was not something we purposefully did for this game just to upset people one way or the other, as it has always been this way on our end.

Now that being said, part of the reason is simply due to the design and scale of the game where each nation has the same general types, i.e. Divisions, Corps, Army types and so on, with nation specific stats to reflect their differences, and we don't currently include specialized unit types (on a per country basis) that would allow for separate units such as the Waffen SS for the Germans. Again, for the reason for this, you'd have to consider the current scale of the game, and to go back to the early design decision from 15 years ago and the lack of general request for these specific unit types since then in game.

Also, and to confirm, we do include Special Forces units in game, which can be considered Elite units, and as Bill mentioned as well, these can be purchased and renamed as desired and they have their own look and patterns relative to the other units in game. The game can also be fully modded and some creative techniques can be used to add some specific unit types, provided there are enough unused unit type slots in a particular campaign, and we've done this to include Shock units for the Soviets and so on.

Hope this helps,
Hubert

[warspite1]

Hi Hubert, thanks for the helpful response.

I respond in two areas:

Firstly: Apologies I assumed that the lack of such units was a new development but I guess your response confirms that not only is this not the case, but that if this game series has been selling well for 15-years or whatever then that pretty much confirms you have your target audience right. That is fair enough and it’s horses for courses isn’t it?

Secondly: Notwithstanding the above though (and fully accepting it is not an issue for this game based on its success historically) I still found the sentiment expressed very, very strange – not to mention a tad bewildering. Why?

Well because of the idea that including SS units creates a ‘negative connotation’ or that it is not to ‘everyone’s tastes’. To explore what that means, just take an example of a wargamer playing an Eastern Front game or scenario.

1. Said player sets up his German units ready to kick in the whole rotten edifice, beginning on 22nd June 1941. But wait, what’s this? What are these Black units? Ugh – Waffen SS. Said player, having watched a few WWII documentaries or maybe read a book or two, knows ‘all about’ the SS. Horrified he decides to stop playing, uninstall the game and go and do something else that will be less upsetting.

2. Exactly the same player – having watched exactly the same programs and read exactly the same books. He sets up his grey German units and sits back ready to what? This person remember knows sufficient about the SS in WWII that he does not want to play with them, and so presumably he knows what his SS-free German army is going to do; namely invade the Soviet Union. But because his army is SS-free he is at one with himself, this despite the fact that:

- He is about to invade an ally without a declaration of war
- He is about to wage a merciless war on the ‘Untermensch’ Slavs and other equally ‘disgusting’ minorities of that barbaric Communist state in order to satisfy Hitler’s lust for Lebensraum.
- The war he is about to embark on is one of annihilation
- When his stack of grey units attacks and wins against a stack of Brown units, those brown units are removed from the map. They are removed either because they have been killed or they have surrendered. In doing the latter they are effectively consigning themselves to a long slow miserable death from starvation or exhaustion.
- As the grey units move into the Baltic States, Belorussia and the Ukraine they are followed by Einsatzgruppen who, in conjunction with the local residents, will murder Jews and any other ‘undesirable’ by the hundreds of thousands – at least until a more ‘efficient’ method is found…..

I don’t say the above to give you a lesson in what you already know, but do so to try and work through and understand the thinking. Sure, the German player is not actually doing any of the above in game – but then he is not doing any of the above with black SS units either. In fact he is doing nothing different.

I simply don’t understand how anyone that is likely to be interested in playing this game can be so selective over what is or isn’t acceptable.

The only other thing I would say – and this is a general point not specific to this game - is that there are gamers out there that don’t want (or aren’t able) to muck around in the editor or whatever to change units, maps and stuff. Those in that camp hope instead that the makers of the game do the job in the first place [;)]. Although as all gamers have different tastes you have my sympathy as I guess you are never going to get that right for everyone [;)].

[jzardos]

I know the term Nazi is not something to take lightly for many people that still remember the war or have ties to it. However, I just want black counters to represent the SS units. There's no laws against that, trust me I know the laws here. Also, for those what want to don't understand how important the Waffen SS units were on the battlefield, you have no clue on the history of WW2 and specifically German combat units and performance. These units were instrumental for so many battles. I hope that the designers of this game don't become mindless pawns is some silly drama about 'we can't display Waffen SS units and differentiate them by color because it is offensive'. No it's not, it's just the history.

[Franciscus]

I want to thank Hubert for taking the time to chime in and explain the reason for this design choice. I guess that for previous players of the series (I am not one of them) this comes naturally.

I can understand the reasoning, although I do not agree with it. It seems the SC series is maybe much "generic" regarding units on the field for my taste. And no, although having been part of the team of the AJE game series I probably could, I no longer am in the mood of having to go to a game editor to have SS divisions in a game about WW2 in Europe.

My best wishes for the game, though.

Regards

[Ironclad]

The convincing arguments for representing SS units in the game or indeed any serious WW2 wargame involving the European theatre are well rehearsed above so I won't repeat them. I'm one of those that Warspite refers to who doesn't want to have to edit a game but wants the developers to include these in the vanilla version, through a future update given the imminent release. Its useful to be informed that there is no legal restriction in place so that it would appear that this remains a decision entirely for the game designers and publishers. In view of that I hope a re-think will be possible.

[bo]

ORIGINAL: kirk23

Yes altering the name of units is easy in the editor,but that ain't enough,SS Army,Corps and Division's were for the most part better equipped etc,plus you would have to create new Black Unit counters to represent them,since that is the norm with the vast majority of world war 2 wargames.[;)]

kirk23

There are many players I am sure who can go into the so called editor and can change the name of units, change their fighting attributes, change the color of units etc, but to others this might be daunting to them and myself, it was a mistake plain and simple to leave out SS units because someones sensitivities might be involved.

How about putting the onus on them ["Dont like SS units in the game don't buy it"] I do understand that might cause a few sales to be lost, this truly is an important issue to Matrix and Hubert, but sometimes principal is more important to the many players that have supported Matrix and Hubert through the years than a questionable few lost sales.

Bo

[TheBattlefield]

ORIGINAL: Franciscus

This does not make any sense ! Specially after DC:Barbarossa that not only has waffen SS units on map but was even capable of depicting in an adult, elegant way, the so called "dirty war".

I think now I will pass this game, unfortunately

ORIGINAL: Ironclad

If there is a demand amongst players and I suspect there would be for the inclusion of such units perhaps Matrix/Slitherine and the Development team can have a rethink and perhaps introduce them along with Soviet Guard units (if not present now) in a future update as has been done for CEAW/Grand Strategy.

So that here nothing gets mixed up and this discussion may end with a compromise:

In the Strategic Command series there has really never been an implementing of SS formations for the purposes of a separate military organisation of the German armed forces. For different reasons this should be also maintained in the future. Regardless of the reasons which had maybe led to this decision at the beginning of this game series. But that is of course only my point of view.

Nevertheless, I can understand the question concerning a game-technical integration of these high-powered as well as unblessed troops.

That's why I have created a Mod on the technical base of the "Assault On Communism" expansion which contains - among the rest - exactly this: The historically accurate and from glorification relieved imbedding of various units of the Waffen SS. I have inserted these formations rather complex as an optional and script-based troop (with independent infantry, armoured and engineers units) into the OOB of the "1939 Storm over Europe" campaign. With some diligence work this Mod will be shortly updated and transferred to the big campaign of the quickly appearing SC3.

Cheers

http://battlefieldeuropeproject.webnode.com/battlefield-europe-overview/

[wie201]

I have been on this forum for well over a decade and rarely speak, and have been playing wargames since the 1960s and own several thousand of them, paper and computer (and virtually all of the Matrix Games, many before they bought the rights to publish them). I have all the respect in the world for Matrix and Hubert Carter. But for goodness sakes. Even we cannot be historically accurate? Wow.

[Aurelian]

I plan to buy it regardless.

[zakblood]

I plan to buy it regardless.

+1

[AlbertN]

I also believe the most of the people ignore the difference between SS and Waffen SS.

The latter were the frontline fighting units. The first were pratically an additional military police of the very brutal and crude way of conducting their "business".

But I do not believe a moment it's Matrix decision to forfeit SS Units, since they're aplenty around other Matrix games. (Black counters are in MWiF, War in the East and supposedly War in the West which I did not bought so cannot confirm).
On the other hand, having the previous titles of the Strategic Command saga, the SS units were not present there. Simply there is an absolute lack of "national" units which are typical of 1 nation.
You have a Panzer Army which you may upgrade always first, replace always first - and enact that way an SS Unit. By itself there is no "SS" template of stats - that is what may be meant.

But how the game introduces itself, it is a game about strategy in a WW2 environment where naval combat is the same as land combat, and the "formations" are meant to be entirely destroyed in bundles of armies and corps. Applying the concept of less losses and retreats may be a good idea for this game (whereas minors loses capitols and surrender, the russian campaign would change greatly)

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: Franciscus

I want to thank Hubert for taking the time to chime in and explain the reason for this design choice. I guess that for previous players of the series (I am not one of them) this comes naturally.

I can understand the reasoning, although I do not agree with it. It seems the SC series is maybe much "generic" regarding units on the field for my taste. And no, although having been part of the team of the AJE game series I probably could, I no longer am in the mood of having to go to a game editor to have SS divisions in a game about WW2 in Europe.

My best wishes for the game, though.

Regards

You said it.

Although I will have a second look after the release.

[Aurelian]

It is the decision of the designer. The lack of SS units didn't keep people from buying any of the previous games.

To compare what other games has to this is silly IMHO. Different designers aim for different things.

A bigger concern, to me, is do I have to disable my RX 480 to play this one like I do for SC WW1: Breakthrough?

I gather that I won't have to.

Besides, I have yet to see a Russian Front game that has the Soviet Engineer Armies. Hasn't stopped me from buying them though

[Numdydar]

Not buying a game that you think you would like it just because it is lacking a particular unit type seems pretty lame to me. Especially at the scale of this game, Corp/Armie. But each to their own.

I think if this was at a lower level, like War in the East/West, then I would agree with you.