Waffen SS ?

[IckieStickie]

Hi,its definately that,but why should the rest of us in Uk and rest of Europe still have to have them,they looks so false and ridiculous,and they really bug me now.Others simply add an option to change(have both Classic/German)I mean Russia doesnt have this issue all games they get have the right flags/icons.Black the icon and name them there specific unit like you get in DC games and others i could mention.So it can be done easily.It wouldnt be so bad if the German cross didnt look so World war one either.Some icons ive seenr ecently cleverly use the cross,ok its still not Classic but when you zoom the further away they look like a swastika which is better than nothing.Some games get it right some don't.

[IckieStickie]

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

Not buying a game that you think you would like it just because it is lacking a particular unit type seems pretty lame to me. Especially at the scale of this game, Corp/Armie. But each to their own.

I think if this was at a lower level, like War in the East/West, then I would agree with you.

I didnt say unit type,i said All the Axis counters which is quite alot.I will still purchase the game,just saying some of us here would like the option to at least have Both sow e can choose,those that live in Germany have the one option but the rest of us have two.Simple.:)WitW is a at a Huge level too isnt it?,and don't forget that Classic symbol isn't banned in the rest of the Countries i mentioned above.Only Germany have outlawed it.But if it turns out this game doesnt have ANY SS units then what's the point in that?maybe that would make me think different?...Why don't you just leave out the Germans all together?

[sPzAbt653]

It seems the SC series is maybe much "generic" regarding units on the field for my taste.

Yes, the OOB's might be too generic for some players [me included], but my personal decision is to support the developers for the fine product they are putting out. As with many other games, there will be mods [post #33 in this thread outlines one, I have my own]. So get the game and pick your mod if the stock campaigns don't do it for you.

[chemkid]

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[RodyMetal]

Of course I will support Matrix as long as they keep their games authentic and a true to strategy games core while their developers make those amazing games with passion.
The explanation from developer about not including waffen SS is acceptable for me, they confirmed that they did it because of:
1. Some players may find it offensive
2. The game is more focused on bigger picture of WW2 so specific troops are not necessary really.
I prefer the above justification rather than paradox interactive responses recently about historic accuracy and realism, ie: "it is just a game and suppose to be fun"... sigh..

[IainMcNeil]

For me the key point to bear in mind is the scale. At the scale we are representing it doesn't make sense to represent the SS in standard military units as our units are too large. Each unit in the game represents a multitude of sub units some of which are SS. The SS units combat values are abstracted in to the army level stats covered by the technology advantage and readiness/morale advantages the Germans enjoy in the early game. We never even thought about suggesting SS unit names as they did not exist at the army level we represent so there is no compromise as it was just not an issue. A tank unit with heavy tanks 3 is the same for all nations, so people can understand what is happening. By design we do not have different values for different nations, and the advantage German armour had in early war is represented by the techs they have. This again is a design decision, not a comment on the history.

I know some people feel strongly about this but this is already a niche hobby and if we go out of our way to look for issues when 99% of the game is perfect and we don't agree with 1%, then no game is ever going to succeed. Also as already mentioned you can mod to your hearts content so if you want to change unit names please feel free. The modding support for Hubert's games is immense.

I really hope nobody misses out on this awesome and unique game because of this issue. I'm hugely enjoying the game and can't wait to find enough free time to complete a game.

[xwormwood]

This game will rock when it has been released, it is by far the best SC game ever, and knowing Hubert & Bill it will even get better with later add-ons.

I will always speak out against including specific Waffen-SS units into any GAME. When I play the Axis I don't want Nazi-Germany to win. From my point of view every war gamer agrees that no matter what he is not playing leader of the 3rd Reich, agreeing with everything that took place during history. We always play some kind of "Fantasy"-Germany, where no concentrations camps, mass executions etc. will take place.
Knowing that the Waffen-SS received the best equippment and supplies take quite a bit of their so-called Glory away. In a Grand Strategy game where I am in charge, I hand out the best equippment to where I see it fit. Not to those units which wear black uniforms. In my game there is no Heinrich Himmler, no Roland Freisler, and no commissar order. Else I wouldn't want to play a game where I am responsible for all this brutal madness.

If you really want history, you can't even think about playing the Axis side. Of if we all don't want "real history" in a game, ask yourself why you want to draw your personal line at a place, where Nazi ideology (Swastika & SS) is still in the clear.

I don't want to offend anyone, and I know that nobody who wants to see SS units has sympathy for the Nazis. All I'm asking of you is to think about the fact, if you don't give Goebbels a tiny victory for free, by seeing the Waffen SS as special units.

Again, sorry if I hurt anyone, that is not what I've intended. All I'm asking is to think it through, even if you don't come to my conclusion.

[Franciscus]

ORIGINAL: Xwormwood

This game will rock when it has been released, it is by far the best SC game ever, and knowing Hubert & Bill it will even get better with later add-ons.

I will always speak out against including specific Waffen-SS units into any GAME. When I play the Axis I don't want Nazi-Germany to win. From my point of view every war gamer agrees that no matter what he is not playing leader of the 3rd Reich, agreeing with everything that took place during history. We always play some kind of "Fantasy"-Germany, where no concentrations camps, mass executions etc. will take place.
Knowing that the Waffen-SS received the best equippment and supplies take quite a bit of their so-called Glory away. In a Grand Strategy game where I am in charge, I hand out the best equippment to where I see it fit. Not to those units which wear black uniforms. In my game there is no Heinrich Himmler, no Roland Freisler, and no commissar order. Else I wouldn't want to play a game where I am responsible for all this brutal madness.

If you really want history, you can't even think about playing the Axis side. Of if we all don't want "real history" in a game, ask yourself why you want to draw your personal line at a place, where Nazi ideology (Swastika & SS) is still in the clear.

I don't want to offend anyone, and I know that nobody who wants to see SS units has sympathy for the Nazis. All I'm asking of you is to think about the fact, if you don't give Goebbels a tiny victory for free, by seeing the Waffen SS as special units.

Again, sorry if I hurt anyone, that is not what I've intended. All I'm asking is to think it through, even if you don't come to my conclusion.

Hello, Xwormwood. I suppose you are from Germany, that may explain something about your point of view. I cannot relate with it, but of course I respect it. I very much enjoy history and war games, and precisely because of it I see things quite the opposite of what you imply. We must NEVER forget what Nazi germany did. When we play a WW2 war game I never forget it. Hiding the Waffen SS, on the contrary, is a way of "forgetting" the atrocities committed by Germany. I invite you to try DC: Barbarossa to see how a game designer can include (optionally) some parts of the reality in a mature, elegant way in an excellent game (of a different scale and purpose, for sure)

That being said, I can understand the SC "scale" argument for not including said units. I have not written off buying the game, I will just wait a bit for some more feedback after release, and price tag will also feature in the equation (after all, I already have enough games to last until my death...[:D])

Best regards

[xwormwood]

Hi Franciscus, you're right.
I'm from Germany (my Grandfather did fight in the Waffen-SS), and I completely agree with you that there should be no sugar-coated history, or history-light.
I'm all against forgetting historys lessons, and if I watch a TV-documentation, or when I read a book or watch a movie, I'm all in favor to show everything.

But when I play a game (again, a game!), where I am in charge (me, little me), I can't play on imagining that I've replaced Hitler without having sacked his whole morderous system of crimes. When I'm in charge, than I'm in charge in a (fictional) history line without the need of SS units, slave labour, etc. That is nothing i want to be responsible for, even while it is only a game. Yes, of course I've already played board games like Russian campaign etc. where I led Waffen-SS unit. Maybe it would be different if SC wouldn't give you ultimate power. The game allows you to decide what whill happen next. What to produce, to research, where to move, what to attack, where to hide or where to surprise. Under such circumstances you don't have to rebuild history unchanged. Waffen-SS were units which received for ideological reasons the best weapons. I don't share the ideology, so why should I be forced to do the exact same thing Nazi-Germany did? I'll spend the money where I want (I'm in charge, after all), and there is simply no need to attach the SS runes to any unit name, as there is no SS in my fictional history, which is more or less a carbon copy of history, but without the unnecessary war crimes and the murder.
My point is this one: Goebbels wanted the SS to look bad ass like, and so did Himmler. So they did everything to polish their historical picture. If you wipe away their propaganda gloss, throw what is left into a game engine, than you're looking exactly onto what SC will offer you.
From all I know the SS war crimes had much to do with how the SS units were treated by there enemies. And the SS units were aware of that. This, and the fact that some of them believed in a god-like version of Hitler, made them tough enemies. If your afraid for the punishement, you will resist capture. In case of the east-front probably up to the point were you rather die before you surrender.
Take aways the war crime and the hatred which followed (rightfully!), what remains? Units with the best possible german equippment. And those are in the game.

But as I said, I played games with SS units too. But I really don't fancy them, as I know for a fact that they were not those super-germans the Propaganda wanted us to believe they were. But if you fought down the scum of the earth, you will keep this picture alive as well, as it adds to your victory (we fought those tough bastards, and we won). That is what I call Goebbels late victory, keeping the picture he drew of the Waffen-SS alive even though the Nazis lost the war.

For me the question is where you draw the line. The Wehrmacht partly froze to death during 1941 because the trains were used to transport Jews into Ghettos or death camps. I never heard anyone missing this in any game, even though everyone insisted that the Wehrmacht will freeze to death in the Russian 1941 winter. So we have the Germans freezing, and we abondon the rest. That has nothing to do with history, yet we all agree about this. I draw the red line where the Nazi-Part stays more or less out of the game. Good news is that you really won't miss them. Play against the AI, and get your but kicked (this is the first AI I've played that was able to do a "I kick the walls of Fortress Europe down" successfull D-Day invasion followed by the liberation of France). Play against a human opponent and be ready for the game of your live (this one comes from PBEM games of older SC releases).

I haven't played DC:Barbarossa yet, but I've read some reviews about the game. I guess I will give it a try when it ends up to become a special offer during a sale.

[warspite1]

Hi Xwormwood. Thanks for your thoughts on this interesting subject. Whilst I understand some of what you say, I am afraid I personally cannot agree with most of it. All I can hope is that other serious war game makers* don't start going down this route.

*And that is not a dig at this game. As said in post 28, this game clearly has a target market and sells well to that market. But is a reference to games such as WITE, WITW, DC:Barbarossa where (to a greater or lesser extent) accurate OOB's are required. To be honest it doesn't even refer just to the more detailed games. In addition to detailed, historically accurate games, there is also an aesthetic dimension too. Imagine World In Flames with no SS units..... sacrilege!

[Rasputitsa]

ORIGINAL: Xwormwood
From all I know the SS war crimes had much to do with how the SS units were treated by there enemies. And the SS units were aware of that. This, and the fact that some of them believed in a god-like version of Hitler, made them tough enemies. If your afraid for the punishement, you will resist capture. In case of the east-front probably up to the point were you rather die before you surrender.

The SS practice of murdering prisoners began long before they themselves were under threat, with the massacre of British and French troops in 1940. I only mention this to avoid the impression that somehow the SS were reacting to harsh treatment from their enemies, the SS were totally responsible for their own actions and in the way that Allied troops responded to their behaviour.

However, I also agree that when playing any game, I have no wish to blindly replicate the actions of the historical characters, of either side, and would like the game to allow the player to explore and experience alternative strategies, with the players able to set up forces as they wish, within reasonable historical restraints. The scale of the game probably makes the depiction of individual divisions irrelevant, except that historically full SS Korps were deployed.

I would hope that a thriving mod community will have this covered very quickly, flags, icons, etc., all we need from the developers is the flexibility to achieve this, which from previous posts seem very likely.

I have no doubt that all views will be catered for soon after release. [:)]

[Christolos]

ORIGINAL: Iain McNeil

We never even thought about suggesting SS unit names as they did not exist at the army level we represent so there is no compromise as it was just not an issue. A tank unit with heavy tanks 3 is the same for all nations, so people can understand what is happening. By design we do not have different values for different nations, and the advantage German armour had in early war is represented by the techs they have. This again is a design decision, not a comment on the history.

If I am not mistaken, there were several Waffen SS Panzerkorps that saw action on the eastern front. II SS Panzerkorps was even briefly re-designated I SS-Panzer-Armee in the autumn of 1943 but it was soon changed back to the original name.

I can't wait until November 17th!!![:D]

C


“Excellence is never an accident. It is always the result of high intention, sincere effort, and intelligent execution; it represents the wise choice of many alternatives - choice, not chance, determines your destiny.”

¯ Aristotle

[Numdydar]

ORIGINAL: Xwormwood

The Wehrmacht partly froze to death during 1941 because the trains were used to transport Jews into Ghettos or death camps.

Actually the reason the Wehrmacht froze was due to the decision to ship ammunition and food to the front versus warm clothing. Any transport of prisoners, etc. was going into Germany and would have had no effect on shipments to the front.

[jzardos]

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

It is the decision of the designer. The lack of SS units didn't keep people from buying any of the previous games.

To compare what other games has to this is silly IMHO. Different designers aim for different things.

A bigger concern, to me, is do I have to disable my RX 480 to play this one like I do for SC WW1: Breakthrough?

I gather that I won't have to.

Besides, I have yet to see a Russian Front game that has the Soviet Engineer Armies. Hasn't stopped me from buying them though

You obliviously don't have your facts correct and are just saying things as a 'yes' man? I am one that didn't buy the previous games because of this issue and other parts of WW2 that were poorly represented. So your wrong here. Not saying the game won't appeal to many, but 'GG War in the East' will always be my favorite computer wargame. The designers didn't cave in to the minority and try and hide from the history of WW2. It's war, it was brutal and nothing pretty about it. If you can't handle that, don't play these war games. The Japanese soldiers during WW2 were much more brutal than the SS Waffen units (well documented), so then why did SC2 represent the Japanese army units? Yes, a silly argument but my point has been made.

The irony is that more people are pissed off / disappointed that the SS units are not properly designated and differential from other German Wehrmacht units (black color seems to be the rule of thumb here) than those against representing SS units.

[jzardos]

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

ORIGINAL: Xwormwood

The Wehrmacht partly froze to death during 1941 because the trains were used to transport Jews into Ghettos or death camps.

Actually the reason the Wehrmacht froze was due to the decision to ship ammunition and food to the front versus warm clothing. Any transport of prisoners, etc. was going into Germany and would have had no effect on shipments to the front.

Sorry Xwormwood, but that is the most ridiculous statement I've ever heard in many weeks and I've heard some real winners lately too. You really have no clue about that final German push for Moscow and why the German soldiers were not properly equipped. Even using basic logic, it's the trains going to the front that were needed to carry the winter equipment and winter lubricants/etc. Do yourself a favor and read David Stahel's 'The Battle for Moscow'. Great read and you will truly be enlighten after you read it.

[Ason]

I just really hope we can get more major nation slots in the future, that way we can make the SS a separate country (with one city in Germany as it's capital and territory) then they can have their own counters and stats.

[Hexagon]

Is a motive to dont buy the game dont have SS units??? no, is something good dont add it because they were "evil"??? well, if you release a pacific title you are going to have problems with other symbols and well, i think we are all old enough to dont play a wargame that REPRESENT history with that kind of problems... at the moment we are only playing a military decision game with not other more "dirty" areas because to be fair i a war like WWII you are not going to find angels in any side only sides with less war crimes or that simple hide them.

If the problem are the german laws is easy, 2 versions, one for Germany other for the rest of the world, is not the first game doing this and in the end is only add a diferent unit type with diferent stats and his own symbols (you dont need a new nation, simple create a specific counter set for then).

For me release a patch for game that could be called "extreme realism" is a good option, you can download it if you want or not.

Well, i am at an age where i dislike in wargames touch history because somebody doesnt like it.... is like in a Pacific title dont give the bomb to USA you can dislike a lot the use they did for it but dislike it is not going to change the fact that was used over civilians, something that i consider war crimes but i dont feel scandalized if appear in a game.

[xwormwood]

ORIGINAL: jzardos


Sorry Xwormwood, but that is the most ridiculous statement I've ever heard in many weeks and I've heard some real winners lately too. You really have no clue about that final German push for Moscow and why the German soldiers were not properly equipped. Even using basic logic, it's the trains going to the front that were needed to carry the winter equipment and winter lubricants/etc. Do yourself a favor and read David Stahel's 'The Battle for Moscow'. Great read and you will truly be enlighten after you read it.

You are aware that trains that transports victims are not avaiable to transport supplies? For me that is simple logic, and that is why I used this as an example. Maybe there wasn't enough winter equippment in the first place, maybe it would have been treated as subversion of the war effort to even transport them, maybe the trains into russia weren't affected by these transports, I don't know.
But in the end I don't want to argue. All I'm saying is that everything is connected with everything. And that players have the tendency to demand certain things, while ignoring the other side of the coin, even though one thing couldn't have been without the other. Example: If it was Hitler who demanded to transport anything else but supplies, his orders are usually not in any game (they were in Clash of Steel, if I remember correctly, where German units were sometimes disallowed to move -retreat- toward the west). And even though Hitlers orders are not in the game, players cry out if the effect which these orders had are not in the game. The question is what you want to get. Do you want to see a movie, do you want to play a game where you can't change that much because you are subject of your supperiors order (which didn't helped as an excuse during the Nuremburg trials), or do you want to be the allmighty political and military leader who can decided everything. This is by far from a historical point of view absolutely unrealistic, yet nobody complains.
But as I wrote before, there is no need to argue. In the end I have no joy to lead Waffen SS units into combat, not in real life, not in a game. If somebody feels different about using SS units, well, enjoy them whenever you can. I can't.

[Aurelian]

Why should they make *two* versions of the same game? It has an editor. Put in what you want.

They didn't do it for SC1 or 2, and they sold anyway.

[Hexagon]

The question is if SS units had enough importance and enough diferences to need be modeled as separate unit... if you modelate fallschirmjager units for germans why not SS corps??? same with shock and guards units for soviets... i dont see why combat SS units need not be modeles based in a game orientated ONLY to combat...and well, the use of SS big units has a strategic component... if even possible add them using events to rise corps in late war.

I think that in a game more historical accurancy better the game and we talk only about rename a unit and add a diferent counter for it.