The Midway Conundrum

[Admiral DadMan]

Originally posted by Mr.Frag
pasternakski,

I fail to see where I am implying you are silly but hey, whatever ...

You guys are looking at Midway as JUST a CV battle, what about the rest of it? The Invasion force? The Troops?

If you were suggesting factor them ALL into the outcome, I'd understand what you were shooting for. With ONLY the CV's at steak, I just don't see the point of doing it at all. Do it all and I'd be completely in agreement with that kind of thing. Doing it half-arsed as such with just CV's makes no sense to me. Yes, the USA only risked some CV's, but Japan has a heck of a lot more out there then just some CV's. What is Japan lands the fatal strike instead of the USA? The invasion would have happened as planned. Whats that do to UV's theater? What troops are missing on both sides? What ships? and finally what CV's? You can't just look at the one small part as it is taken out of context and makes no sense.

The CV's would not have been there without the invasion fleet as they would have no reason to be there. If you look at the whole picture, it makes sense. Looking at JUST the CV's is silly.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. The Midway Battle did not exist in a vacuum

[pasternakski]

Look, all I am asking for is this (and Mr. Frag, you are a thoughtful, respectable guy who contributes a great deal to these forums, pardon me if I was a little grumpy):

1. The scenario is identical to scenario 17 in terms of the initial commitment.
2. The Japanese and Americans spar through the "Coral Sea" period, the Japanese knowing that Midway is coming while trying to pull of whatever coups they can with what they have been given to work with in May and June. The Americans counter with what they can scrape up, as historically.
3. Midway happens. The program gives you the results, which can be anything from "Next stop San Francisco" through "Take that, Yamamoto" (the latter being the historical result). This is most dicey as a PBEM option, where the players have established their relationship with each other in May and June and now await the outcome of the "main event" at Midway.
4. The game goes on, with the computer imposing the necessary adjustments on forces, reinforcements, and so on in accordance with criteria built into the various "Midway outcome" templates.

From here on, you fight with what you've got and accomplish what you can. Victory conditions imposed by the program after the Midway outcome has been determined guide your strategy (for example, "Japanese score substantial victory at Midway, but suffer heavy losses. Akagi and Soryu sunk in exchange for Yorktown and Lexington. Japanese commitment to South Pacific theater increased by xxxxxx, and reduced by xxxxxx. Allied commitment increased by xxxxxx, and reduced by xxxxxx.").

One of the more complex programming elements would be that the scenario has to take into account what the players have lost in the time leading up to the Midway "interlude." For example, if Yorktown and Lexington have been p1ssed away early, the Japanese will have an easier time at Midway. Also, if the Japanese have stupidly lost Sho and Zui, maybe forces will have to be withdrawn from the Midway TO&E to keep the SoPac Americans from making too much early progress in the absence of Combined Fleet (Think of Midway with only two Japanese fleet carriers).

Land and air replacements and reinforcements would have to be built into the "post-Midway database," as well.

I know that WITP will be the 400-pound gorilla, but I don't want to lose UV as a viable game. This scenario is the one I was hoping would be the heart of UV when it came out - obviously, I was sadly disappointed.

[Mr.Frag]

I'm game as long as it's not in a vaccum, perhaps a nice shift in Victory Points would be in order too if the system determined it a Japan success...

Just didn't see much sense as it JUST being the CV's as the CV's wound never have been there without the invasion plan...

[Drex]

Pasternaski has an interesting suggestion that could present each player (allied or axis) with a new set of conditions to adjust to. This has replay potential. But can it be programmed?How many different outcomes of the Battle of Midway are there?

[pasternakski]

Originally posted by Mr.Frag
I'm game as long as it's not in a vaccum, perhaps a nice shift in Victory Points would be in order too if the system determined it a Japan success...

Just didn't see much sense as it JUST being the CV's as the CV's wound never have been there without the invasion plan...

Absolutely. A brand new war emerged after Midway, and I think it would have been the same no matter who won there. For gaming purposes, each outcome would have to be accompanied by an adjustment in the victory conditions to balance things in view of the Midway results.

I absolutely agree that the implications would have involved far more than just the numbers of CVs involved. There are so many possibilities. For example, suppose CincPac had decided that, after a marginal Japanese victory at Midway resulting in capture of the island but rout of the Combined Fleet, a riposte was necessary. The South Pacific would have been put on minimum reinforcement, but, due to the heavy Japanese fleet losses, an enterprising Allied commander might have been able to mount a successful, if perhaps limited, counteroffensive.

Remember that UV puts you in charge of what was, initially, a secondary theater. As the war heated up, it became the primary theater of operations for a long time, until the Central Pacific offensive gathered steam. There are many permutations that have never been explored, and I think that this game could explore them to the satisfaction of many UV players.

For example, suppose that the Japanese lost at Midway, but only marginally, sinking two or three American carriers while losing only one. Yamamoto might have decided to throw his remaining resources into a cataclysmic assault on Australia. You wind up with a situation similar to what often results in UV after the "Coral Sea" time period, but now it is August. Numbers favor the Japanese, but time is more than ever on the Allies' side. How do you cope?

UV has unexplored aspects, in my opinion, and the game has not yet reached its full potential due to the limited attention given to scenario design.

Gimme what I wanted when I bought it, guys. There is no guarantee that WITP will explore these possibilities satisfactorily. UV and WITP are two different games on two different scales addressing two different (but related) subjects.

[crsutton]

Originally posted by spruance
As a new player, I am interested to know what people's views
are on whether the Midway carriers should be included in a
given game.

I notice from postings that the most popular scenarios for PBEM
games seem to be those that cover the entire duration
of the South Pacific campaign, namely #17 and #19. Now I
know that in both these scenarios, the four Japanese and one
US carrier sunk at Midway are available to the players.

Doesn't this create an ahistorical situation whereby players
have ships not available to their historical counterparts?
In which case, I wonder why people don't play the scenario which begins after Midway, given most people's preference for historical accuracy.

I can't speak for anybody else, but I just love playing with all those cool ships.

I am an old wargamer with a lot of cardboard under the bridge and I have always been of the opinion that you can never have too many counters on the table

[spruance]

Originally posted by crsutton
I can't speak for anybody else, but I just love playing with all those cool ships.

I am an old wargamer with a lot of cardboard under the bridge and I have always been of the opinion that you can never have too many counters on the table

Fine I have no problem with that. I mean, if people want to
go into the scenario editor and add HMS Victory, USS Nimitz
or the Starship bleedin' Enterprise that's fine by me. I personally
view UV as a historical simulation, but I don't believe its
approach to Midway gives me the total picture.

In conclusion: the simple solution is to take out the Midway
ships. The full solution to build in some computer resolution
of the Midway outcome.

And if other people hate those ideas, they still have the current
scenarios 17 and 19.

[Snigbert]

I wonder why so few people seem to play the post-Midway

One of my favorites is the Aug-42 through Dec 43 campaign, but I havent gotten anyone to PBEM with me for that one..

[pasternakski]

Originally posted by Snigbert
I wonder why so few people seem to play the post-Midway

One of my favorites is the Aug-42 through Dec 43 campaign, but I havent gotten anyone to PBEM with me for that one..

I have a feeling that it's because most players think the Japanese cause is irretrievably lost after the historical Midway result.

Well. Tell that to the Japanese. They struggled mightily after Midway and gave the Americans some serious hell. With some breaks (along the lines of what the Americans got at Midway), they might have pulled off some amazing things.

I suggest that superior leadership might have made a decisive difference, as well. You can provide that as the Japanese player in UV. Yes, you are on the short end of the stick. Yes, time is against you. Isn't that the kind of challenge you went out looking for when you became a wargamer?

So, come on, you would-be heroes, give Snig a run for his money. How about you, Rodriguez? (Ah, no Captain, man, I've got to - ah - reprimer the jeep!) I guess I won't bother to ask Brown...

[HMSWarspite]

Couple of things:
There are a few people who seem to want to play UV like chess - totally predictable range of moves all within their control, and an even chance of winning. The others (myself included) like to have to deal with what they've got. I think the 'Midway simulated by the AI, and you get what you're given' is a good idea, but half the possble PBEM games would be stopped by the 'wrong' result. Also JN players are like hens teeth for historical scenarios

For UV to really work with the historical scenarios (especially with the Midway varient), the victory system needs to be revised. Who wins the campaign is immaterial (USA unless something really wierd happens!). The points system only needs to determine who PLAYED better. I.E. did you do better than you would expect given the situation. For the historical scenarios and the Midway varient to work, the US would have to have a great number of points removed for a historical Midway (or JN get a load). Maybe some modification to the points, where a players points are scaled by the opponents total force (VP count of all ships, planes etc) somehow... Then set victory as twice the VP count at any point (or similar - remove the auto victory as now)

Then those of us who like playing a hopeless defence have something more objective to judge against than 'I lost, but it took 2 weeks longer, and he lost 1 more CV than history' type rationalisations, that we are left with at present.

I other words, something like the bonus VP given to JN in PACWAR (but less crude I would hope)

[pasternakski]

Originally posted by HMSWarspite
Couple of things:
There are a few people who seem to want to play UV like chess - totally predictable range of moves all within their control, and an even chance of winning. The others (myself included) like to have to deal with what they've got. I think the 'Midway simulated by the AI, and you get what you're given' is a good idea, but half the possble PBEM games would be stopped by the 'wrong' result. Also JN players are like hens teeth for historical scenarios

For UV to really work with the historical scenarios (especially with the Midway varient), the victory system needs to be revised. Who wins the campaign is immaterial (USA unless something really wierd happens!). The points system only needs to determine who PLAYED better. I.E. did you do better than you would expect given the situation. For the historical scenarios and the Midway varient to work, the US would have to have a great number of points removed for a historical Midway (or JN get a load). Maybe some modification to the points, where a players points are scaled by the opponents total force (VP count of all ships, planes etc) somehow... Then set victory as twice the VP count at any point (or similar - remove the auto victory as now)

Then those of us who like playing a hopeless defence have something more objective to judge against than 'I lost, but it took 2 weeks longer, and he lost 1 more CV than history' type rationalisations, that we are left with at present.

I other words, something like the bonus VP given to JN in PACWAR (but less crude I would hope)

Completely agree. VP "loading" would have to be part of the solution. I consider, too, that the historical Midway outcome was about as bad as it could be for the Japanese. Most simulated outcomes would be more favorable, encouraging the Japanese player to continue. Also, as this is just a scenario and not the entire game, the players would know going in what the uncertainties are and would be committed to seeing it through no matter what. Think of the position the Allied player would find himself in after a disaster at Midway!

It's got the "kick" to it I was really hoping for from UV and didn't get.

Scenario 17 is, to me, just a more detailed rehash of Grigsby's old War in the South Pacific game, where the Japanese AI would sit in Truk until 10 carriers accumulated, then make a mad dash with all of them toward Noumea. As the Allies, you put your carriers in a TF parked at Noumea, with every land-based plane (especially fighters) you could get your hands on stacked up at the airfield. Then, when the Japanese carrier TF was just out of range, you disbanded your TF until the next morning, when the Japanese would have foolishly forgotten you were there (talk about your naval search bugs) and wandered conveniently close so that you could have the inevitable knock-down-drag-out battle that the Allies stood a pretty good chance of winning or at least breaking even in.

[Nikademus]

Originally posted by pasternakski
I have a feeling that it's because most players think the Japanese cause is irretrievably lost after the historical Midway result.

Well. Tell that to the Japanese. They struggled mightily after Midway and gave the Americans some serious hell. With some breaks (along the lines of what the Americans got at Midway), they might have pulled off some amazing things.

I suggest that superior leadership might have made a decisive difference, as well. You can provide that as the Japanese player in UV. Yes, you are on the short end of the stick. Yes, time is against you. Isn't that the kind of challenge you went out looking for when you became a wargamer?

So, come on, you would-be heroes, give Snig a run for his money. How about you, Rodriguez? (Ah, no Captain, man, I've got to - ah - reprimer the jeep!) I guess I won't bother to ask Brown...

I found Sniggy's scenerio an enjoyable change of pace from the material laden SC's 17 and 19.

Variety is after all the spice of life. My opponent though did rather think i had a screw loose for offering to play it as IJN. Then again thats hardly the first time anyone has ever made that observation about me :p

Still too many **** transports though.

[pasternakski]

Originally posted by Nikademus
I found Sniggy's scenerio an enjoyable change of pace from the material laden SC's 17 and 19.

Variety is after all the spice of life. My opponent though did rather think i had a screw loose for offering to play it as IJN. Then again thats hardly the first time anyone has ever made that observation about me :p

Still too many **** transports though.

I used to play the Aug '42 - Dec '43 campaign as the Japanese against the AI back when I was trying - in vain - to learn how to play UV. It's a tough go, especially if you give the Allies max ship commitment and difficulty level. Of course, the artificial stupidity makes enough blunders that you can do pretty well on points.

[Snigbert]

For the first part of Aug42-Dec43 things aren't really too horribly unbalanced:

Japs - Shokaku, Zuikaku, Junyo, Hiyo, Zuiho, Ryujo, Ryuho, lots of BBs and CAs

Americans - Enterprise, Hornet, Saratoga, Wasp, a few BBs, lots of CAs

Naturally the Americans have all the other advantages they normally enjoy, but historically the Japanese still managed to sink 3 American carriers after Midway in the battles of the S. Pacific (Saratoga was the only carrier present at the start of the war to survive the war, right?)

I like this scenario because it forces the players to act more historically...be conservative or you could lose everything on a roll of the dice.

[Admiral DadMan]

Originally posted by Snigbert
For the first part of Aug42-Dec43 things aren't really too horribly unbalanced:

Japs - Shokaku, Zuikaku, Junyo, Hiyo, Zuiho, Ryujo, Ryuho, lots of BBs and CAs

Americans - Enterprise, Hornet, Saratoga, Wasp, a few BBs, lots of CAs

Naturally the Americans have all the other advantages they normally enjoy, but historically the Japanese still managed to sink 3 American carriers after Midway in the battles of the S. Pacific (Saratoga was the only carrier present at the start of the war to survive the war, right?)

I like this scenario because it forces the players to act more historically...be conservative or you could lose everything on a roll of the dice.

They only sank two: Wasp (by sub torpedo), and Hornet (Battle of Santa Cruz). Enterprise also survived, and was the most decorated ship in the Navy to boot, IIRC.

[Snigbert]

Enterprise also survived, and was the most decorated ship in the Navy to boot, IIRC.

Okay, I wasn't sure about the Big-E, but still 2 CVs isn't bad either considering the odds against them. I'd say that the Japanese navy still had teeth for a little while after Midway, and the fun of the historical scenario is to see how much damage you can do with those teeth before you are overwhelmed.

For some reason I thought one of the Essex classes (Intrepid or Franklin) was most decorated...

[Admiral DadMan]

Originally posted by Snigbert

...
For some reason I thought one of the Essex classes (Intrepid or Franklin) was most decorated...

Intrepid had the most "incidents" in terms of being hit for damage.

Franklin was the most seriously damaged to survive.