UBoat Warfare- Is it cost effective?

[Qwixt]

I don't own the game, but I was watching a video where he said subs have two modes of movement: Hunter and Silent. I assume if you move silent until ready to setup a pack, that you might have better luck?

[wlape3]

Another solution is to just go into the editor and decrease the cost of U-Boats to whatever you want it to be and increase the dive percentage until you see the results you expect.

[KenchiSulla]

You also need to include the cost for DDs and the likes on the allied side to fight your subs to the equation...

[ILCK]

ORIGINAL: Qwixt

I don't own the game, but I was watching a video where he said subs have to modes of movement: Hunter and Silent. I assume if you move silent until ready to setup a pack, that you might have better luck?

Silent is, well imperfect. I run into a lot of enemy units that way just from moving. You figure that the sub is one hex wide and the hex on either side can cause an enemy contact. Given all the subs and all the DD's moving alone generates a fair number of hits...and that is the problem. At the scale of the game finding "a" destroyer means finding usually 3 of them.

Actually a "wolf pack" is a worst idea you can have because getting all your subs together means that it is much easier for the DD's to find more than one per turn. I have mine scattered all over the map so that only one dies at a time.

[balto]

"You also need to include the cost for DDs and the likes on the allied side to fight your subs to the equation..." -- another great point.

"Actually a "wolf pack" is a worst idea you can have because getting all your subs together means that it is much easier for the DD's to find more than one per turn. I have mine scattered all over the map so that only one dies at a time." -- another excellent observation.

"Another solution is to just go into the editor and decrease the cost of U-Boats to whatever you want it to be and increase the dive percentage until you see the results you expect." -- NO.

Another great thread. Looking forward to playing this after the manual is read. I am almost done.

[Toby42]

It doesn't matter if I'm in silent or hunt mode, Allied DD's hunt me down and destroy my sub's! About the only place I can hide is go as far North as I can?

[Goodmongo]

Use one sub as bait. Since it takes 2-4 DD's to actually sink that sub I found I can sink those DD's by using bombers and my surface fleet. Just make sure your surface fleet can hit and return to ports in one turn. Soon enough there are no more DD's to worry about.

[quiritus]

you have to change position and alternate 1 turn hide 1 turn hunt.

it's 13 september 42. i build 3 sub more + 1 italy, and invest in sub tech. to date: CW: 1157 MMP lost URSS 1220 MMP. sunk: 7 DD, 3 CL, 3 CC, 1 BB

cost: 615 MMP (sub damaged) 800 build/upgrade 600 research

so aroud 2000 MMP of cost brought 2377 MMP of economic damage + 2700 of ship sunk (and several others damaged)

[fatgreta1066]

So I'm hearing that some folks have found ways to make good use of their subs and some haven't figured out an optimal strategy yet. That sounds about right for a newly released game. I'm glad I read all the way through and didn't just give up on the idea of finding ways to have fun with the strategic war.

[ILCK]

ORIGINAL: fatgreta1066

So I'm hearing that some folks have found ways to make good use of their subs and some haven't figured out an optimal strategy yet. That sounds about right for a newly released game. I'm glad I read all the way through and didn't just give up on the idea of finding ways to have fun with the strategic war.

Well while I see Quiritus talking about getting a net gain in MPP exchange (he is either much better or much luckier than I. The 377 MPP net gain he added over the allies is largely an illusion. The lost naval units aren't much of a gain because Germany effectively cant challenge the UK on the waves - unless you mount the masssive effort for Sea Lion which likely costs you the war in the east. Plus, it is ignores the massive opportunity cost his 2000MPP of effort entailed when that could buy him: Advanced Tanks 2, Inf Weapons 2, Logics 2, PLUS what 7 corps upgraded fully? That is why the trade off is not helpful.

[fatgreta1066]

ORIGINAL: ILCK

ORIGINAL: fatgreta1066

So I'm hearing that some folks have found ways to make good use of their subs and some haven't figured out an optimal strategy yet. That sounds about right for a newly released game. I'm glad I read all the way through and didn't just give up on the idea of finding ways to have fun with the strategic war.

Well while I see Quiritus talking about getting a net gain in MPP exchange (he is either much better or much luckier than I. The 377 MPP net gain he added over the allies is largely an illusion. The lost naval units aren't much of a gain because Germany effectively cant challenge the UK on the waves - unless you mount the masssive effort for Sea Lion which likely costs you the war in the east. Plus, it is ignores the massive opportunity cost his 2000MPP of effort entailed when that could buy him: Advanced Tanks 2, Inf Weapons 2, Logics 2, PLUS what 7 corps upgraded fully? That is why the trade off is not helpful.

OK, but that's just one example. I'm not sure that the Germans can get an MPP advantage from the U-Boat war (or sure that they can't). I am sure that in the 1940's Germany was not able to utilize it's subs to get the real world equivalent of an MPP advantage, so that seems reasonable for this game. I think that some folks have found ways to use their subs that are effective, and some haven't. And that the game is pretty new and there will be plenty more experimenting done before the question can be definitively answered.

[quiritus]

ORIGINAL: ILCK

ORIGINAL: fatgreta1066

So I'm hearing that some folks have found ways to make good use of their subs and some haven't figured out an optimal strategy yet. That sounds about right for a newly released game. I'm glad I read all the way through and didn't just give up on the idea of finding ways to have fun with the strategic war.

Well while I see Quiritus talking about getting a net gain in MPP exchange (he is either much better or much luckier than I. The 377 MPP net gain he added over the allies is largely an illusion. The lost naval units aren't much of a gain because Germany effectively cant challenge the UK on the waves - unless you mount the masssive effort for Sea Lion which likely costs you the war in the east. Plus, it is ignores the massive opportunity cost his 2000MPP of effort entailed when that could buy him: Advanced Tanks 2, Inf Weapons 2, Logics 2, PLUS what 7 corps upgraded fully? That is why the trade off is not helpful.

i'm deep in URss at the same date. i have Adv Tanks 3, inf 2 log 2 from end may 41. what i give away is mot upgrade.

[fatgreta1066]

It's early, but here is how my sub war has gone up to July 1940. I've only used the subs that were in operation at campaign start, and the CA that had already sorties as a raider. I used silent mode to get out of the North Sea. One sub didn't make it and was sunk in two turns. The others did. By moving them around a lot, and switching between silent and hunt mode (meaning not raiding every turn), the four surviving subs remain at full strength. The RN caught the lone CA and tore it up, doing 9 points of damage. So far I've caused 195 MPP losses by raiding. In exchange for the 10 sub and 9 CA losses I probably caused 3-4 DD and 2-3 CA losses back at the Brits. Now that France is in hand all four surviving subs are in ports in Western France prepping for another run. One sub remains to be deployed. I'm holding on to it until either the event that allows Germany to deploy subs in France fired, or I attempt Sea Lion. Since these units were pre-deployed in the campaign, I think this is so far a net plus for Germany.

I think that if I manage to conquer England it will make sense to continue investment in subs, both new ones and upgrades. They should help keep the US and U.K. Fleets at bay given the distances they'll need to travel. Otherwise I'll think of the subs as disposable resources, brave sailors who will sell their lives dearly.

While I share some of the frustrations others have posted about the way naval interdiction works in this game, I do enjoy the cat and mouse nature of convoy raiding.

Below are the losses suffered / inflicted in the order they occurred. There wasn't raiding or combat every turn.


Sub -7
Sub -3 (D)
MPP -15
MPP -11, -10
MPP -10, -13
MPP -11, -11, -15, -8
MPP -9, -13
CA -2
MPP -12
MPP -11, -15, -12
CA -2
MPP -13, -15
CA -3
MPP -9
CA -2
MPP -13
MPP - 195

[Jim D Burns]

The event for subs in France fires on the turn France goes Vichy. It's an option to spend money to convert a port in Brittany (can't recall the name of the port, it's first one south of Brest), if you chose no then you won't be allowed to deploy subs in France.

Jim

[Razz1]

ORIGINAL: ILCK

ORIGINAL: fatgreta1066

So I'm hearing that some folks have found ways to make good use of their subs and some haven't figured out an optimal strategy yet. That sounds about right for a newly released game. I'm glad I read all the way through and didn't just give up on the idea of finding ways to have fun with the strategic war.

Well while I see Quiritus talking about getting a net gain in MPP exchange (he is either much better or much luckier than I. The 377 MPP net gain he added over the allies is largely an illusion. The lost naval units aren't much of a gain because Germany effectively cant challenge the UK on the waves - unless you mount the masssive effort for Sea Lion which likely costs you the war in the east. Plus, it is ignores the massive opportunity cost his 2000MPP of effort entailed when that could buy him: Advanced Tanks 2, Inf Weapons 2, Logics 2, PLUS what 7 corps upgraded fully? That is why the trade off is not helpful.

Okay I agree with you, but open your eyes wider.

Will the AI build more destroyers and other ships to replace their losses?
Will not a UK replacing their Navy become a weak air force land force?
Thus making the Battle for Britain easier.
Thus making African land war easier?
Won't this strategy benefit you to you in the long run?

Perhaps....

[fatgreta1066]

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

The event for subs in France fires on the turn France goes Vichy. It's an option to spend money to convert a port in Brittany (can't recall the name of the port, it's first one south of Brest), if you chose no then you won't be allowed to deploy subs in France.

Jim

Hm, maybe the event doesn't fire 100% of the time? It didn't trigger for me this time around. No matter.

[BillRunacre]

It will come, the conditions are as follows:

Event fires: On or after the 1st August 1940 if both Paris and St Nazaire are in Axis hands, and there are no Allied units within 6 hexes of either location.

[Goodmongo]

Here are a couple of things to remember about the sub war on convoys. You can only sink a maximum of that route. So if I had 6 subs doing 10 damage each but the route only gave the UK 40 MPP I would see 60 MPP sunk but it's capped at 40 MPP.

I'm not sure how it works when the routes are next to each other since a raider can impact up to one hex away. It would need to be tested in multiplayer to see exactly the impact.

But the main benefit of your subs are that they are CV and BB killers. I would gladly swap 3 subs to sink a BB and CV. As the Italians I win control of the Med and take Malta by baiting the UK ships to fight. Use your subs to do the same. Keep them about 6 hexes out in front of you main fleet hoping a DD comes to play. I lose 4 strength on the sub but sink that DD. The AI then send a couple of BB's and a CV to sink my 2 BB's and my subs take them out. Doing this in the North Sea or English Channel means I can bring my bombers into the action. It has to happen during August 1940 through January 1941 as they need to repair and get to Russia.

[Templer_12]

BTW, UBoots raiding convoys also lower national moral!

[Goodmongo]

While it's true they do lower national morale I don't think it has any impact unless you actually invade the UK.