Insanely difficult as Axis?
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spinecruncher
- Posts: 372
- Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2006 5:06 am
Insanely difficult as Axis?
It does not seem fun that Germans get such little R&D and Italy is impotent. Seems impossible to win as Germans. Am I doing something wrong?
RE: Insanely difficult as Axis?
I don't want this to sound condescending, but it seems you still have to learn how to play the game. Maybe it would be a good thing for you to read through the section of the manual with strategic advice. In fact, there are many different ways to win with the Germans and with a little bit of experience you might come to think that it's not a chore either.
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spinecruncher
- Posts: 372
- Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2006 5:06 am
RE: Insanely difficult as Axis?
I guess I am just comparing with my first impressions vis a vi SC1 & 2. But can anyone respond in terms of generalities of diffrerences? Is my first impression incorrect? Why or why not? Thank you!
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Jim D Burns
- Posts: 4001
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2002 6:00 pm
- Location: Salida, CA.
RE: Insanely difficult as Axis?
All I can say is I kind of felt this way until I played as the allies. Then you see just how much of an advantage the Germans have in the early game. The allies really need to focus on just a couple techs if they have any hope of standing up to the Axis.
For Russia its inf weapons, for Britain inf weapons, anti-sub and advanced air power. Also It's vital that Britain build at least one HQ (2 if they lose the B.E.F. HQ) and one engineer to send to Africa as low supply and sandy terrain will see your fast collapse there. I'd also send at least 2 additional armies if you can scrape the funds together.
When I played Germany I found my mistake was the order in how I spent my funds. If you spend a lot of money repairing and upgrading after Poland, you won't have time to build up funds again and then build units in time for the attack on France. So build the units first before anything else, even repairs. The same goes for Russia, after France focus on nothing but units and do the other things later. Timing your funds is key for the axis in the early game.
Jim
For Russia its inf weapons, for Britain inf weapons, anti-sub and advanced air power. Also It's vital that Britain build at least one HQ (2 if they lose the B.E.F. HQ) and one engineer to send to Africa as low supply and sandy terrain will see your fast collapse there. I'd also send at least 2 additional armies if you can scrape the funds together.
When I played Germany I found my mistake was the order in how I spent my funds. If you spend a lot of money repairing and upgrading after Poland, you won't have time to build up funds again and then build units in time for the attack on France. So build the units first before anything else, even repairs. The same goes for Russia, after France focus on nothing but units and do the other things later. Timing your funds is key for the axis in the early game.
Jim
RE: Insanely difficult as Axis?
Most things that worked in sc2 will work in sc3. It's generally the same concept and mostly the same rules. Just the timing and events have changed a bit.
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Mountaineer
- Posts: 110
- Joined: Fri Sep 06, 2013 7:06 am
RE: Insanely difficult as Axis?
I agree with build first, then repair and upgrade just before the attack. You need mass over technology. Consider limiting things like motorization to a few elites and naval combat to very few aircraft.
RE: Insanely difficult as Axis?
Having the privilege to be a desultory beta tester I've probably started more games than most this close to release date.
I agree with the suggestion of mass (over modernity).
Start the army going west from Poland along the roads. Save MPPs by not using operate. Give road priority to HQ, armies, panzers, then corps in that order. They will start to file into place in March/April. Not all will be at jump off points for the attack in the west when the attacks starts but, believe it or not, most will be able to participate, if nothing else by penetrating the Maginot Line when it starts to thin out.
The Axis can schedule builds and upgrades in a crescendo that booms on the Allies in May 1940. Consider starting with the best available of tank/tactical air asap. After Poland falls you can build both w/o upgrades. Continue to build tanks/tactical air that will arrive by April (remember they arrive at 50% and don't do anything the first turn on the map). As the arrival dates move past April 1940, that is the time to upgrade as many units as possible. Focus on reinforces panzers to full strength. In terms of upgrades I've never had enough MPPs to upgrade everybody so, per developer's suggestion, upgrade the point of the spear as they will have to cut through the defenses.
Hopefully when you start the attack in the west you'll have 5 or 6 medium or tac bombers plus six panzers, a pzgrn and SP. Then launch the attack, even if you don't feel fully prepared and it is not perfect. The critical point is to mimic history: pound them with planes then follow up with your upgraded anything that will get there. Late arriving panzers (which should have been build with level 1 tanks and mobility so they arrive ready to go) can continue the attack from the point they are deployed on the map.
As for Italy, I transport the army from Albania and the one from Venice plus the armor unit while the army in Libya starts a MPP expenditure free march to the Egyptian border. I send the fighter and tac to help and find they can hold the line pretty well if you have researched the infantry upgrade.
The final suggestion I have is to use all German MPPs for units until the Fall of France, the start researching. Italy is the opposite: I don't build new units but rather use the MPPs to upgrade the economy and improve unit types.
Hope this helps.
I agree with the suggestion of mass (over modernity).
Start the army going west from Poland along the roads. Save MPPs by not using operate. Give road priority to HQ, armies, panzers, then corps in that order. They will start to file into place in March/April. Not all will be at jump off points for the attack in the west when the attacks starts but, believe it or not, most will be able to participate, if nothing else by penetrating the Maginot Line when it starts to thin out.
The Axis can schedule builds and upgrades in a crescendo that booms on the Allies in May 1940. Consider starting with the best available of tank/tactical air asap. After Poland falls you can build both w/o upgrades. Continue to build tanks/tactical air that will arrive by April (remember they arrive at 50% and don't do anything the first turn on the map). As the arrival dates move past April 1940, that is the time to upgrade as many units as possible. Focus on reinforces panzers to full strength. In terms of upgrades I've never had enough MPPs to upgrade everybody so, per developer's suggestion, upgrade the point of the spear as they will have to cut through the defenses.
Hopefully when you start the attack in the west you'll have 5 or 6 medium or tac bombers plus six panzers, a pzgrn and SP. Then launch the attack, even if you don't feel fully prepared and it is not perfect. The critical point is to mimic history: pound them with planes then follow up with your upgraded anything that will get there. Late arriving panzers (which should have been build with level 1 tanks and mobility so they arrive ready to go) can continue the attack from the point they are deployed on the map.
As for Italy, I transport the army from Albania and the one from Venice plus the armor unit while the army in Libya starts a MPP expenditure free march to the Egyptian border. I send the fighter and tac to help and find they can hold the line pretty well if you have researched the infantry upgrade.
The final suggestion I have is to use all German MPPs for units until the Fall of France, the start researching. Italy is the opposite: I don't build new units but rather use the MPPs to upgrade the economy and improve unit types.
Hope this helps.
"L'audace, l'audace, toujours l'audace."
RE: Insanely difficult as Axis?
Playing as the Allies you see very quickly what the Germans are up against. You are on a clock from turn 1. Poland and France have to fall fast. You have to kill Russian units really, really fast. Basically it feels like if the Russians are still standing in 1942 the Axis is in real trouble. I would like to see if anyone can win in 42 or later as the Axis.
RE: Insanely difficult as Axis?
There is no need to go for mass insead of quality while you play against the AI, at least not from my experience.
The question is how do you spend you money. For what, an when.
What I usually do while playing the Axis is to research industry and production, and Intelligence, too.
I'll try to move over the map instead of using the expensive OP movement.
And I install only thechs which I need for any given task (example: no need to improve the German units around Warsaw until 1941).
While playing the Allies I'll invest again in industry, production tech and intelligence. At least with the USA and USSR. The USA is the most important country, as it will feed the rest of the free world.
When you buy new units, don't forget that you will need HQs to win the war. Artillery units help where all planes have to stay on the ground because of bad weather. All tactic techs help all units, even though they don't have to get a tech upgrade. So I research them first. And finally to buy every tech upgrade for your allied nations like Romania or Hungary. They suck your money aways, as they are the most expansive units to built, repair and improve. I use those for garisson duties, or if at all as second line units. If at all they get infantry tech advances, but nothing else (exception: fighter planes).
Don't spend your money to build a second Hochseeflotte. The germans strength is their army, and they are bound to loose any naval race against the UK and USA.
The question is how do you spend you money. For what, an when.
What I usually do while playing the Axis is to research industry and production, and Intelligence, too.
I'll try to move over the map instead of using the expensive OP movement.
And I install only thechs which I need for any given task (example: no need to improve the German units around Warsaw until 1941).
While playing the Allies I'll invest again in industry, production tech and intelligence. At least with the USA and USSR. The USA is the most important country, as it will feed the rest of the free world.
When you buy new units, don't forget that you will need HQs to win the war. Artillery units help where all planes have to stay on the ground because of bad weather. All tactic techs help all units, even though they don't have to get a tech upgrade. So I research them first. And finally to buy every tech upgrade for your allied nations like Romania or Hungary. They suck your money aways, as they are the most expansive units to built, repair and improve. I use those for garisson duties, or if at all as second line units. If at all they get infantry tech advances, but nothing else (exception: fighter planes).
Don't spend your money to build a second Hochseeflotte. The germans strength is their army, and they are bound to loose any naval race against the UK and USA.
"You will be dead, so long as you refuse to die" (George MacDonald)
RE: Insanely difficult as Axis?
I too rather lean towards the strategy Xwormwood adopts. My first priority - be it as Axis or UK/US - is focused research, not massproduction. Soviets may be a different issue.
In the end, I think this is largely a matter of personal preference, at least against the AI.
In the end, I think this is largely a matter of personal preference, at least against the AI.
RE: Insanely difficult as Axis?
There is one huge difference with this new version.
In the old SC you could move and attack, maybe attack, move and move one more unit in.
Now I see the AI attack, rotate out the unit, attack again, rotate out the unit, upto 6 or 7 times.
It almost feels like facing a stack.
The AI was easily breaking my lines this way in France.
So it might actually be more smart to go for more low tech units as you can "stack" attacks.
In the old SC you could move and attack, maybe attack, move and move one more unit in.
Now I see the AI attack, rotate out the unit, attack again, rotate out the unit, upto 6 or 7 times.
It almost feels like facing a stack.
The AI was easily breaking my lines this way in France.
So it might actually be more smart to go for more low tech units as you can "stack" attacks.
RE: Insanely difficult as Axis?
ORIGINAL: n0kn0k
So it might actually be more smart to go for more low tech units as you can "stack" attacks.
Yeah, in Fall Gelb that may be the case, but in general I hate it when my lowtech units don't do damage. E.g. in Africa, the British have a real hard time facing German level 2 infantry weapons units even when they themselves got level 1. If in an attrition situation you have to replenish shitloads of strength points all the time while the enemy barely suffers, this can get ugly very soon MPP-wise.
RE: Insanely difficult as Axis?
ORIGINAL: Hartmann
ORIGINAL: n0kn0k
So it might actually be more smart to go for more low tech units as you can "stack" attacks.
Yeah, in Fall Gelb that may be the case, but in general I hate it when my lowtech units don't do damage. E.g. in Africa, the British have a real hard time facing German level 2 infantry weapons units even when they themselves got level 1. If in an attrition situation you have to replenish shitloads of strength points all the time while the enemy barely suffers, this can get ugly very soon MPP-wise.
You need a handful of "killer" units hidden among a mass of units. Getting my panzers/panzergrenadiers to tier 3 and the tactical bombers to 2 made a huge difference as the Germans.
RE: Insanely difficult as Axis?
ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns
All I can say is I kind of felt this way until I played as the allies. Then you see just how much of an advantage the Germans have in the early game. The allies really need to focus on just a couple techs if they have any hope of standing up to the Axis.
For Russia its inf weapons, for Britain inf weapons, anti-sub and advanced air power. Also It's vital that Britain build at least one HQ (2 if they lose the B.E.F. HQ) and one engineer to send to Africa as low supply and sandy terrain will see your fast collapse there. I'd also send at least 2 additional armies if you can scrape the funds together.
When I played Germany I found my mistake was the order in how I spent my funds. If you spend a lot of money repairing and upgrading after Poland, you won't have time to build up funds again and then build units in time for the attack on France. So build the units first before anything else, even repairs. The same goes for Russia, after France focus on nothing but units and do the other things later. Timing your funds is key for the axis in the early game.
Jim
Jim, what do you do with your British engineer once it reaches Africa?
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Jim D Burns
- Posts: 4001
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2002 6:00 pm
- Location: Salida, CA.
RE: Insanely difficult as Axis?
ORIGINAL: vaalen
Jim, what do you do with your British engineer once it reaches Africa?
I build a double line of 2 hexside forts facing west in the 3 hex gap north of the depression. I then fortify all the hexes around Alexandria and Cairo.
Forts aren't tremendously powerful in the desert, but the extra entrenchment levels they allow help you stay alive until your infantry and armor tech catches up with Germany. I have found your units die quick once Germany strips away your entrenchments, and if you've not set up good supplies before they attack repairs will be impossible and readiness losses for swapping units can really see a defense start to crumble against tech 2 panzers.
Against the AI it's sometimes salvageable due to mistakes the AI makes, but a human opponent will rip you apart once you are forced to begin swapping units. So I try and learn/play in a way that I expect to have to play in PBEM. Getting an engineer to Africa ASAP is a priority if you want to have time to get the first line of forts done before the Africa Korps arrives.
Jim
RE: Insanely difficult as Axis?
ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns
ORIGINAL: vaalen
Jim, what do you do with your British engineer once it reaches Africa?
I build a double line of 2 hexside forts facing west in the 3 hex gap north of the depression. I then fortify all the hexes around Alexandria and Cairo.
Forts aren't tremendously powerful in the desert, but the extra entrenchment levels they allow help you stay alive until your infantry and armor tech catches up with Germany. I have found your units die quick once Germany strips away your entrenchments, and if you've not set up good supplies before they attack repairs will be impossible and readiness losses for swapping units can really see a defense start to crumble against tech 2 panzers.
Against the AI it's sometimes salvageable due to mistakes the AI makes, but a human opponent will rip you apart once you are forced to begin swapping units. So I try and learn/play in a way that I expect to have to play in PBEM. Getting an engineer to Africa ASAP is a priority if you want to have time to get the first line of forts done before the Africa Korps arrives.
Jim
Thanks,Jim. That is really good to know, as I am about to start a game as the Allies.
Regards,
Vaalen
RE: Insanely difficult as Axis?
ORIGINAL: Treefrog
Having the privilege to be a desultory beta tester I've probably started more games than most this close to release date.
I agree with the suggestion of mass (over modernity).
Start the army going west from Poland along the roads. Save MPPs by not using operate. Give road priority to HQ, armies, panzers, then corps in that order. They will start to file into place in March/April. Not all will be at jump off points for the attack in the west when the attacks starts but, believe it or not, most will be able to participate, if nothing else by penetrating the Maginot Line when it starts to thin out.
The Axis can schedule builds and upgrades in a crescendo that booms on the Allies in May 1940. Consider starting with the best available of tank/tactical air asap. After Poland falls you can build both w/o upgrades. Continue to build tanks/tactical air that will arrive by April (remember they arrive at 50% and don't do anything the first turn on the map). As the arrival dates move past April 1940, that is the time to upgrade as many units as possible. Focus on reinforces panzers to full strength. In terms of upgrades I've never had enough MPPs to upgrade everybody so, per developer's suggestion, upgrade the point of the spear as they will have to cut through the defenses.
Hopefully when you start the attack in the west you'll have 5 or 6 medium or tac bombers plus six panzers, a pzgrn and SP. Then launch the attack, even if you don't feel fully prepared and it is not perfect. The critical point is to mimic history: pound them with planes then follow up with your upgraded anything that will get there. Late arriving panzers (which should have been build with level 1 tanks and mobility so they arrive ready to go) can continue the attack from the point they are deployed on the map.
As for Italy, I transport the army from Albania and the one from Venice plus the armor unit while the army in Libya starts a MPP expenditure free march to the Egyptian border. I send the fighter and tac to help and find they can hold the line pretty well if you have researched the infantry upgrade.
The final suggestion I have is to use all German MPPs for units until the Fall of France, the start researching. Italy is the opposite: I don't build new units but rather use the MPPs to upgrade the economy and improve unit types.
Hope this helps.
this. Haven't read the manual- just can't focus reading but....
I've been very careful and thoughtful on use of MMPS early on.
Took France and Yugo and setting up attack on Russia. I have always moved panzers and corps and even some armies instead of operate which is expensive.
One important thing on both preparation for France and Russia and even Yugo is note when a new unit shows up when purchasing and don't spend the MMP on reinf or upgrade yet. Make sure to have any new units you want in place before the attack. Then since it only takes a turn (or 2 depending on MMPS) you can reinf/upgrade. Don't be tempted to do the latter first just because you can.
RE: Insanely difficult as Axis?
I usually don't get all 3 Soviet cities till mid-late 1942 so it's possible. Key is can you reduce the Soviet MPP in 1943 by taking the oil fields. Not accepting the major victory means the Soviets fight on. It's a long slow slog but as Germany with the oil fields you have enough MPP to slowly push them back to the Urals and invade UK.
The only thing I use operate on is HQ's. Force march is fine and gets you there fast enough. Just need to rest 1-2 turns to get stats back up. I also may use operate on air power to quickly move the bombers if they must be somewhere fast.
The only thing I use operate on is HQ's. Force march is fine and gets you there fast enough. Just need to rest 1-2 turns to get stats back up. I also may use operate on air power to quickly move the bombers if they must be somewhere fast.
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Jim D Burns
- Posts: 4001
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2002 6:00 pm
- Location: Salida, CA.
RE: Insanely difficult as Axis?
ORIGINAL: vaalen
Thanks,Jim. That is really good to know, as I am about to start a game as the Allies.
No problem, but it looks like my plan was not sufficient. The Germans landed even more troops (seems to be a second Africa Korps with 2 experience stars for the units, ouch) and they are crushing my lines. I got creative and thought I had time to build more elaborate forts (more than two hex sides) due to the fact I had three armies in theater, bad move. I'm falling back to the few forts I managed to complete, but the Germans are killing one or two units a turn now so looks grim.
I posted a screen shot in this thread (post #18) back when I thought I was in good shape. The Oasis is now gone, both inf corps and the tank are dead and the southern HQ is fleeing into the open desert 1 hex at a time to try and survive. All three armies were hit and are now running back to the forts, though I don't know if I will have time to reinforce them.
tm.asp?m=4189394
I had been pounding the Italian HQ on the coast, but the Italian navy showed up. I am winning but most of my ships are in rough shape now.
Man things turned bad fast lol, I'm loving this game.
Jim
RE: Insanely difficult as Axis?
ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns
ORIGINAL: vaalen
Thanks,Jim. That is really good to know, as I am about to start a game as the Allies.
No problem, but it looks like my plan was not sufficient. The Germans landed even more troops (seems to be a second Africa Korps with 2 experience stars for the units, ouch) and they are crushing my lines. I got creative and thought I had time to build more elaborate forts (more than two hex sides) due to the fact I had three armies in theater, bad move. I'm falling back to the few forts I managed to complete, but the Germans are killing one or two units a turn now so looks grim.
I posted a screen shot in this thread (post #18) back when I thought I was in good shape. The Oasis is now gone, both inf corps and the tank are dead and the southern HQ is fleeing into the open desert 1 hex at a time to try and survive. All three armies were hit and are now running back to the forts, though I don't know if I will have time to reinforce them.
tm.asp?m=4189394
I had been pounding the Italian HQ on the coast, but the Italian navy showed up. I am winning but most of my ships are in rough shape now.
Man things turned bad fast lol, I'm loving this game.
Jim
While I think that the idea to get engineers over is a good one, it's much more important to
1) get to infantry level 2 asap
2) kill all Italian navy in the med
In my current game, playing just the UK, I made alot of grave mistakes (like taking ages to retake Iraq and wasting mpps on stuff like air defense), but I still could hold the line at El Alamein because I relocated a big chunk of the British navy and airforce from the UK to the med where it sank alot of Italian and German troop transports trying to cross over to Lybia.