Thread for DB3000 database problems, updates or issues

[mikmykWS]

ORIGINAL: Scar79

mikmyk

I never said or even meant that CMANO is a bad game - it's a really great Tactical and even Strategical Simulator, proud successor of the classic Larry Bond's Harpoon. But in my subject opinion it would be even better if RCS estimations for different stealth platforms were closer to some sientific researches, instead of all those cool-stories about insects, golf balls and metal marbles.

Nobody here used the marble stories in developing the model. Do you have any idea what these comments make you sound like?

If you're serious please provide some examples and we'll definitely take a look. Get dramatic, call us names and just act like you are now we'll do exactly nothing.

This is just my subjective and honest opinion. And if there is some way to edit CMANO Database i would be happy to do it with my copy of the game - to get the numbers i consider as more realistic than default ones. Is it possible to do just with my local copy of DB? Thx for your answer in advance.

Not at this point without messing up your copy.

Thanks!

Mike

[Scar79]

ORIGINAL: mikmyk
Nobody here used the marble stories in developing the model.

I've already asked this question: I wonder where did you get these numbers - please, can you name a source(s)? Thanks. Because they're correlate pretty well with estimations made in the press, basing on some odious statements of some MIC and US government officials i've mentioned earlier. That's why my first guess was that you're basing on these estimations and statements too.

Do you have any idea what these comments make you sound like?

If you're serious please provide some examples and we'll definitely take a look. Get dramatic, call us names and just act like you are now we'll do exactly nothing.

As i said, that was my guess - basing on correlation of your numbers with those numbers in media. Excuse me if i'm wrong and insulted you, but then i would be very interested to read the sources you were based on.

Not at this point without messing up your copy.

Thanks!

Mike

It's a pity.((

[mikmykWS]

ORIGINAL: Scar79

ORIGINAL: mikmyk
Nobody here used the marble stories in developing the model.

I've already asked this question: I wonder where did you get these numbers - please, can you name a source(s)? Thanks. Because they're correlate pretty well with estimations made in the press, basing on some odious statements of some MIC and US government officials i've mentioned earlier. That's why my first guess was that you're basing on these estimations and statements too.

Do you have any idea what these comments make you sound like?

If you're serious please provide some examples and we'll definitely take a look. Get dramatic, call us names and just act like you are now we'll do exactly nothing.

As i said, that was my guess - basing on correlation of your numbers with those numbers in media. Excuse me if i'm wrong and insulted you, but then i would be very interested to read the sources you were based on.

Not at this point without messing up your copy.

Thanks!

Mike

It's a pity.((

I've said what I have to say on this and look forward to anything actionable you send.
Have a nice day and enjoy the game[:)]

Mike

[Broncepulido]

But usually F-22 is designed to carry 4xDT.
http://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9453

[CV60]

Minor database correction:
The SA-3a GOA (5V24) (CWDB Weapon_168, DB3000 Weapon_729 )
is listed by Janes as having the following parameters. Most are only minor deviations from the exisiting database, but the minimum altitude given by Janes is lower, the range is longer and the missile's speed is higher than that in the database:

Weight: 933 kg
Length: 6.88 m (with booster)
Diameter: 0.39 m (missile), 0.55 m (booster)
Wingspan: 1.22 m
Speed: 3.5 mach
Range: 328-32,808 feet (100-10,000 m)(altitude), 2.2-8.1 nm (4-15 km) range

http://weaponsystems.net/weaponsystem/E ... 3+Goa.html and https://fas.org/nuke/guide/russia/airdef/s-125.htm agree with the Jane's figures, although it might simply be because they are relying on James (they don't cite their sources). While not directly applicable, in The Naval Institute Guide to World Naval Weapons Systems (1997-98) page 403, the SA-N-1 Goa (a derivative of the SA-3) is also listed as having a minimum engagement altitude of 100 meters, although the speed of the missile is also listed as 600 m/s (mach 1.75).

Note: All sources give the SA-3a warhead weight as 60kg, vice 63 kg that appears in the DB3000/CWDB database.

[PN79]

Hello CV60,

According to data from Hpasp ( https://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home ) the min (200m) and max (10000m) altitude of 2V24 is correct in the database. Check his SA-3 manual for details.

[CV60]

Hello CV60,

According to data from Hpasp ( https://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home ) the min (200m) and max (10000m) altitude of 2V24 is correct in the database. Check his SA-3 manual for details.

I agree that SAM simulator is generally reputable. However, Jane's "Land Warfare Platforms: Artillery and Air Defense" "S-125 Neva/Pechora (SA-3 'Goa")" article, dtd. 29 November 2016 gives the lower numbers for the 5V24/Sa-3a. Possibly some of our Russian/Eastern European players may have access to Russian language original sources that can resolve this?

[PN79]

Here: http://pvo.guns.ru/s125/ is stated: "С учетом больших энергетических возможностей ракеты В-600 по сравнению с В-625 перед ОКБ-2 одновременно была поставлена задача расширить зоны поражения комплекса, в том числе обеспечить диапазон высот перехвата целей от 200-300 до 10000 м." i.e. altitude from 200-300m to 10000m. Further in the text is mentioned that this inadequate minimum altitude was reason for developing 5V27 missile.

What may be can be changed is range of the missile. Currently it is 1 to 5 nm (1,9 - 9,3 km) and I think it should be changed to 3 to 6 nm (6-12 km) which is usually quoted for 5V24 missile.

I think that if there is interest we can start separate topic in the "The War Room" to discuss optimum values for these early soviet missiles.

[Filitch]

At this page http://pvo.guns.ru/s125/ you can find next text

The S-125 complex with the V-600P rocket has been taken advantage on June 21, 1961. Resolution of the Central Committee of the CPSU and Council of ministers of the USSR No. 561-233.
The means of S-125 fulfilled by then reached hit of the targets with speeds up to 1500-2000 km/h in the range of altitudes of 200-10000 m at ranges of 6-10 km. Firing the target maneuvering up to 4 units with an overload, in the range of altitudes of 5000-7000 m was provided. The transonic targets at the altitudes more than 1000 m could be hit even at maneuver with an overload to 9 units. In the conditions of passive jamming the greatest altitude of the target decreased to 7000 m. At the firing the active jammer which is carried out by the three-points method, the maximum altitude reached 6000 m, and minimum increased up to 300 m. The maximum course parameter made 7 km, increasing to 9 km for the transonic targets. The probability of kill was estimated by one rocket in 0,82-0,99 with decreasing to 0.49-0,88 when the enemy passive jamming.

[mikmykWS]

Made some adjustments

CV60's ranges and warhead and dimensions.

[CV60]

Here: http://pvo.guns.ru/s125/ is stated: "С учетом больших энергетических возможностей ракеты В-600 по сравнению с В-625 перед ОКБ-2 одновременно была поставлена задача расширить зоны поражения комплекса, в том числе обеспечить диапазон высот перехвата целей от 200-300 до 10000 м." i.e. altitude from 200-300m to 10000m. Further in the text is mentioned that this inadequate minimum altitude was reason for developing 5V27 missile.

What may be can be changed is range of the missile. Currently it is 1 to 5 nm (1,9 - 9,3 km) and I think it should be changed to 3 to 6 nm (6-12 km) which is usually quoted for 5V24 missile.

I think that if there is interest we can start separate topic in the "The War Room" to discuss optimum values for these early soviet missiles.

PN79, Filitch, Mikmyk-Thanks for looking into this. I have to admit that I was surprised by the 100 m altitude capability for a 1960-era system. What gave me pause was the reputability of the source (Jane's), combined with the age of the system (as presumably we have good data on it given its age). With that said, I have previously seen what I believe to be errors in reputable sources, including Jane's, so I try to confirm the all the database entries as I work on the DB descriptions.

[CV60]

Possible Database correction:
Griffin LGB (DB3000 Weapon_2403, 2402, 2404)
Manufacturer gives a range of 12 km (6.5 nm) vice 4 nm in database see http://www.iai.co.il/2013/34290-16151-e ... tions.aspx. Jane's also uses the 6.5nm figure for the Griffin-equipped Mk 82/83/84

Similarly, the Griffin-3 (DB3000 Weapon_2405, 2406)is listed by Jane's as having a range of 12 km (6.5 nm) vice 4 nm in database

Jane's gives a 5 meter CEP for the Mk 82/83/84 versions, vice 2 meters in the database. An Indian webpage "Strategic Affairs" also uses the 5 meter CEP, although they give no source. See http://www.strategic-affairs.com/detail ... ry&&id=543

Updated

[tiikki]

I noticed that Finnish airplanes needs a lot of work as there are errors and omissions. I've done some work to add them to Admiralty Trilogy board game and ready stuff is posted in my blog http://tiikki.blogspot.fi/.

There you find

[link=http://tiikki.blogspot.fi/2013/09/fouga-magister-in-finnish-air-force-and.html]Fouga Magister[/link] total 80 were used from 1958 to 80's [link=http://tiikki.blogspot.fi/2013/03/saab-draken-in-finnish-air-force-and.html]Draken[/link] S/SX version should be similar to Swedish F2 not F1 as the stats are, number of tanks vs missiles in loadouts is also questionable in all Drakens as they were updated from 4 rails to 6 at some point. [link=http://tiikki.blogspot.fi/2012/11/il-28-in-finnish-air-force-and-some.html]Il-28[/link] 3 of aircraft were R-models and fourth was regular. None were used for bombing and all were used for target towing and naval recon. They are missing radars and so are soviet ones too. [link=http://tiikki.blogspot.fi/2012/05/mig-21f-13-in-finnish-air-force.html]MiG-21F-13[/link] First ones arrived 63 not 65 and last one removed from service 86. Also some were locally modified to MGT (T=Tiedustelu=Recon). MGT had High Fix removed and only those had recon pod capability. On armament side I'm unsure of actual Finnish standard loads. [link=http://tiikki.blogspot.fi/2012/06/mig-21bis-in-finnish-air-force.html]MiG-21BIS[/link] There is local MGBT recon version and

Other minor corrections:

Mi-1 were used by Border Guard and Air Force, not army and there were 4 of them and used between 61-67 and they were polish SM-1 versions. Mi-4 were used by Air Force, not army and there were 3 of them Mi-8P were used by Air Force, total 2, received 78 or 79 Mi-8T were used by Air Force, total 4, received 73/74, Border Guard received total 4 in 1981/2/3 Hawks used also R-60 Aphid missiles available and they should stil be armed with IR missiles. It also carried recon pods. F/A-18 According to SIPRI Finland received AIM-120A Amraams on 1998 (I think B is correct version from all other data), AIM-9L/M Sidewinders 1996, AIM-9X 2008, AIM-120C-7 2013, JDAM 2011, JASSM 2016

Missing aircraft:

DC-3 (9 from 60 to 84) DHC-2 Beaver (3 in Air Force use from 58 to 71 and 3 used by Border guard from 51 to 88) MiG-21U/UM (total 6) Agusta Bell 206A (1 in use of Air Force from 68 to 79 and 7 used by Border Guard from 68 to 2011) Hughes 369HS, 369HM and 369D total 5 received 1975 (most likely 3 500C models and 2 500D models) Fokker F.27 Friendship Mk100 (2 from 1980 to ?, one modified to elint from 97?, second one removed from use 2004) Fokker F.27 Mk 400M Troopship (1 from 84 to 2013) Agusta Bell 412 (5 from 1985 used by Border Guard, SAR with night vision, heat camera and radar) AS 332 Super Puma (3 from 1988 used by Border Guard for SAR) H215 Super Puma (2 from 2016 used by Border Guard for SAR) AW119 Ke Koala (4 from 2009 used by Border Guard) DO-228 Dornier (2 from 1995 used by Border Guard)

And thank you for your hard work

[edsw]

On corvettes pr.20380 since the ship "Gromkiy", will have a new mast with PESA "Zaslon".

[edsw]

http://forums.airbase.ru/2016/11/t85910_175--ctorozhevye-korabli-korvety-proekta-20380-stereguschij-5.html

[edsw]

Also on the Su-35S is IR station be ob- attacking missiles and warning of laser irradiation.


http://www.npk-spp.ru/deyatelnost/avionika/126-optiko-elektronnaya-razvedka-.html

[Kushan04]

Structure (Dry Dock) appears to be missing in DB3K. It does exist in the CWDB.

Added

[tiikki]

Back to Finnish stuff. For Air Force stuff I can get material quite easy (the Air Force museum is in less than 30min travel.) For others I've collected some stuff but it is lot harder for me to get info.

[orca]

Can there be a generic surface search radar (advanced) in the next DB? Maybe similar in abilities to the Japan J/TPS-P23 radar. Currently the only generic surface search radar is late 1960s tech.

[CV60]

Suggested change for MIM-14B NIKE HERCULES (CWDB Weapon_331). The database gives a engagement range of 1500-150,000 feet AGL. Jane's gives a number of 3,281-100,000 feet. However, the technical manual "Nike Hercules Technical Description" December 1960 (TM9-1440--250-10/2) on para 8.C.a.2 (pg 13)(available here: http://ed-thelen.org/TM9-1440-250-10-2-Dec1960-1.pdf) states that the missile launch angle, along with the turning distance of the missile creates an engagement "dead zone" approximately 10,000 yards (4.9 nm) horizontally and 20,000 feet vertically. So while the minimum engagement altitude probably needs to be raised a little, there should be no engagements allowed in a box 30,000 feet (horizontally) by 20,000 feet vertically from the launcher. I'm not sure if that can be modeled in with the game engine. Also, this manual also gives a 100,000 foot max altitude, unlike the 150,000 foot in the database.

Against a SRBM, the intercept ranges varied from 17nm to 37nm, depending on the target trajectory. See TM9-1440--250-10/2 page 16.

One other addendum: The nuclear-equipped MIM-14B (CWDB Weapon_1645) could be used against surface targets, as well as airborne targets. In this role, maximum range was 98.8 nm, according to Jane's and 100 miles according to "Nike Hercules Technical Description" December 1960 on pages 13 and 86.