Late war USN rifles

[Ian R]

Questions for the cognoscenti:

(a) Is the auto load version of the 8"/55 carried by the Des Moines class included in the current databases, and if so which slot?

(b) Is the auto load DP version of the 6"/47 carried by the Worcester class in there, if so which slot?

(c) Is the 3"/50 AAA weapon in the database already, if so which slot?

Thanks

[el cid again]

I have looked at this many times with a view to including the
Des Moines class. Including tonight. Every time I came to the
same conclusion stock did: a ship commissioned in July 1948 is
too late for the game. RHS scenarios end in July 1946. The
problem is time to build such a complex ship. Indeed, it was
NOT intended to complete these ships during the war! It was a
sneaky way to get a class with wartime lessons learned using
wartime funding!

My first ship (USS Francis Marion, APA 249) birthed across the
pier from the last of the Des Moines in service (USS Newport News,
CA-148) at Norfolk). Her younger sister, Des Moines herself, in
spite of being laid down sooner, commissioned only in November
1948. For some reason Conway's lists the commissioning of Newport
News as 1949 - but it must be a data entry error. I follow Friedman
in US Cruisers here.

I regarded the Newport News as the most beautiful warship in the
world, and the most deadly in surface combat, never mind I also
got to serve with (and control off the DMZ) USS New Jersey - almost
as beautiful and almost as powerful. It is the gun system you
are looking at that matters. Newport news set the all time heavy
shell record off Viet Nam - a record probably for all time. These
were 8 inch machine guns, automatically fed. But impractical
in terms of cost, weight, and ship volume required - to mount them
needed a ship too big to afford either up front or to keep in service.
I have tried to say "what if construction was not slowed down because
the war was going badly?" I still cannot make up enough time for
her to enter service by Spring 1946.

To create her gun, use an accuracy of 120 (based on practical
rather than theoretical rate of fire). Call it the Mark 16 gun.
Range 30,050 yards. The Major Caliber Lightweight Gun is based on
its design. Each gun weighed 20 tons! It was a joy to watch in
action (usually from about 4,000 yards, farther out to sea,
off the DMZ, which I did from my second ship, USS Waddell, DDG-24,
often Flagship, Naval Gunfire Support in Tonkin Gulf). As far
as I am aware, because data can remain classified when a system is
declassified, her theoretical maximum rate of fire may not be
disclosed even today.

[Ian R]

Thanks Sid, will use those numbers.

BYOE - I am working up a hypothetical mod for play against the AI which is based on Ironman nasty, to give the IJAI a leg up, but putting in a lot of Allied stuff to make the mid-late war counteroffensive more enjoyable. I have reset the end date of the scenario to late 1947 - no idea if that will actually work, but the editor recognises it.

Interesting point - 2 of the 3 Des Moines class eventually completed were built by Bethlehem, Quincy, the other at Newport News. Those (private) yards set a number of speed records for warship construction. CV19 Hancock commissioned 15 April 1944 in a mere 14 months & 20 days. Newport News (where CA148 was built) pushed CV13 Franklin out just under 14 months. Bethlehem built CA72 Pittsburgh in just on 18 months, 25% quicker than the other Baltimores, and CL65 Pasadena in about 16 months. Adding a 3-4 month shakedown and refit before availability, it looks like 21-22 months total for a CA is fairly optimal.

It seems pretty clear that the private yards could move like lightning when they needed to. The big gun ships are all building in navy yards, or in the case of the Alaskas, New York SB, so while Newport News has its hands full with repeat CVBs, Bethlehem can get to work on the Des Moines class, which has some similarity to the Baltimore. The approval for Newport News was given by October 1943 and the contract was awarded in April 1944, and given a more expeditious start and an 18 month build, it can arguably be ready for its shakedown cruise by late 1945.

.

[el cid again]

The game will run with end dates up to 1999! I had to
do some experimenting for some reason and was guided by
a programmer. Sure enough, it works. What it will NOT
do is recognize dates BEFORE 1941.

I do not believe a Des Moines class CA can be built in
18 months, in particular not for the first ship. It is NOT
a repeat Baltimore, but an entirely new type. It is as
complicated as an Iowa really. Which is why it takes longer
to build than even a large carrier does. They are lovely
warships but probably not cost effective. The only worse
examples are the Worcester class CLAA and the Alaska class
CB. Beautiful they may be. Powerful guns they may have. But
they are extremely expensive ships to the extent one can buy
more firepower and get it faster by picking other classes. The
Alaska class was an astonishing disappointment - lousy seakeeping -
lousy turn - poor layout internal and external according to the
first commanding officer. And very expensive in terms of up front
cost, maintenance cost and crew requirements. Two first class modern
CL's would be a lot more useful, cheaper and take less time to complete.
Never mind, I love them. I give you missile armed variants if you
want to convert them. The Alaska was the only USN type that might
have been armed with both SSMs and SAMs in WWII (Loon and Lark).
Loon was in fact the German V-1 (with four inches more wingspan),
and it also was actually built in massive numbers - mainly for firing
from converted LST's and airplanes. The Lark was a sort of improvised
sub-sonic SAM flown by joystick control because they could not complete
the T program types in time - or even control supersonic missiles with
the technology of the age. Only Alaska was to get them - on the sides
- with two Lark "firing pits" aft in place of the after turret.

If the game lasts into 1946, IJN fields two types of SAM's, sort of a short
range and a medium range one. The USN actually has ASM's in 1944 if memory
serves - look up Bat - and we have em on several bombers in RHS - if you want
to steal the data. They could have armed carrier bombers as well as land
bombers if plans were implemented. A test attack worked, but the program
was not proceeded with. [Don't give the Russians' ideas perhaps?? Too late,
the Germans sank Roma with SSMs]

[LargeSlowTarget]

Just nit-picking - Roma has been sunk by "Fritz X" which is a guided bomb, not a SSM (or ASM).

[Ian R]

I do not believe a Des Moines class CA can be built in
18 months, in particular not for the first ship.

Absolutely historically correct Sid, no disagreement.

But if you look at all the extra IJN stuff that AndyMac has put in Ironman, in this hypothetical universe I am happy with Bethlehem Quincy putting the hammer down and accelerating the Des Moines. I've even got the 5 later Swiftsures (most had keels laid in 41-42) launching earlier and heading to the US East Coast for fitting out - including with USN AAA suites. Along with the Audacious/Eagle class. UK yards are busy with the Majestics/Centaurs.

The idea is that if you can survive the early ironman onslaught you get all the big toys for payback time. The 12 extra Baltimores built, at least 6 Clevelands, and all 26 Essex that were contracted. Among other things. The US goes to a full war economy in this scenario, not the partial version of history.

[Ian R]

If the game lasts into 1946, IJN fields two types of SAM's, sort of a short
range and a medium range one. The USN actually has ASM's in 1944 if memory
serves - look up Bat - and we have em on several bombers in RHS - if you want
to steal the data

Thanks I'll check it out.

[m10bob]

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget

Just nit-picking - Roma has been sunk by "Fritz X" which is a guided bomb, not a SSM (or ASM).

The missile which sunk the BB Roma was like the Air launched missile which killed my uncle George Sortwell, aboard the RMS Rhona just after Thanksgiving in 1943..It was visually guided after being launched.

http://ww2today.com/26th-november-1943-troopship-rohna

[witpqs]

But if you look at all the extra IJN stuff that AndyMac has put in Ironman, in this hypothetical universe I am happy with Bethlehem Quincy putting the hammer down and accelerating the Des Moines.

My aunt worked there in the Fore River shipyard as a welder during WWII! [8D]

[Ian R]

She wasn't named Rosie was she?

BTW I found the 6"/47 Mk 16 HA Gun in the database. It's in slot 1785.

[RyanCrierie]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

I have looked at this many times with a view to including the
Des Moines class. Including tonight. Every time I came to the
same conclusion stock did: a ship commissioned in July 1948 is
too late for the game.

Actually, according to

"ANNEX B
OF THE REPORT OF SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON CUT BACKS
IN THE NAVY SHIPBUILDING PROGRAM OF 31 JULY 1945"

from the National Archives in July 1945:

DES MOINES was to finish construction 12/31/46 and be Ready For Sea February 1947.
WORCESTER was to finish construction 12/1/46 and be ready for sea January 1947.

The end of WWII messed up a lot of "Advanced" programs -- in the case of one particular 3"/50 (or was it 3"/70?) mount, they arbitrarily added a significnat delay to the program because it was no longer a wartime program.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: Ian R

She wasn't named Rosie was she?

Dolly.

[Ian R]