Spain always joins Axis

[The Land]

ORIGINAL: Bill Runacre

ORIGINAL: The Land
I do share the OP's frustrations about how this plays out. Spain has an easy time plugging away at Gibraltar with one perpetually reinforced Spanish army (that gets upgraded with Germany tech) and British reinforcement is limited by supply.... By contrast, the British have a very hard time taking Tangeir on the other side of the Straits with a Corps, an Army, a Special Forces and a Tac - even with the Royal Navy dominating the straits of Gibraltar. To my mind, given naval dominance, Britain should have an easier time taking Tangier than Spain does Gibraltar.

Do you have a British HQ there too?

Even with it, it won't necessarily be easy but without one then it will be a very difficult if the initial landing doesn't take the town.

That's a good point, actually. I tried to send one via the Red Sea to South Atlantic transit but it never appeared.... a bug?

[PorcelainBus]

yes - i think there were a few messages about Spain moving toward the Allies

[vaalen]

ORIGINAL: Bill Runacre

ORIGINAL: PorcelainBus

I played my first game as Allies - difficulty Veteran but no experience bonus - Spain joined the Axis the turn after France went Vichy - late August 1940.

Hi

Do you remember if the AI was investing heavily in diplomacy against Spain?

There should have been reports of this in the event summaries when they had diplomatic successes.

Thanks

In my games, the only event that happened was the fall of France, and the declaration of Vichy France.

But I did get a number of messages that Spain was moving to the Axis. And, starting with my second game, I had Britain invest the maximum allows number of chits in Diplomacy, on Spain, as early as I had the MPPS to do so. It had no effect. Spain still joined the Axis shortly after the fall of France and the establishment of Vichy France.

[BillRunacre]

Thanks for the feedback everyone, and if any of you find Spain joining the Axis through diplomacy at an early time, such as in vaalen's game when it occured on the fall of France, if you have a save turn from before Spain joins the Axis I would be very interested to take a look. [:)]

Thanks

bill.runacre@furysoftware.com

PS If you do email me a save, ideally zipped, please mention in the email the reason for sending it, as I receive quite a lot of saves about different things.

[OxfordGuy3]

ORIGINAL: Yogol

ORIGINAL: ILCK

It doesn't always happen. I have played as Axis and Allies and Spain doesn't always join.

If anything, the Swedes are a bigger issue since a minor expenditure of MPP can turn the Swedes toward the Allies and at that point they cease sending iron to Germany.

Yes, but the difference is that it is not a big loss if Sweden doesn't join the Axis willingly. If you have to invade Sweden, it's good too.

But invading Spain is bad for Germany. Not only does it takes longer than invading Sweden (and you also have to use German troops to invade Gibraltar and Portugal), you miss out on the Spanish forces: they have quite a lot of armies and corpses, where Sweden doesn't.

BTW the plural of "Corp" is "Corps" and the "p" is silent in both cases, just saying. A corp is a military unit containing two or more divisions. A corpse is a dead body.

[Steely Glint]

BTW the plural of "Corp" is "Corps" and the "p" is silent in both cases, just saying. A corp is a military unit containing two or more divisions. A corpse is a dead body.

Nonsense! "Corps" is both the singular and the plural form, although they are pronunced differently (kor vs korz). Trust me, I did enough paperwork to know.

See

https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-a ... l-singular

for details.

[OxfordGuy3]

ORIGINAL: Steely Glint

BTW the plural of "Corp" is "Corps" and the "p" is silent in both cases, just saying. A corp is a military unit containing two or more divisions. A corpse is a dead body.

Nonsense! "Corps" is both the singular and the plural form, although they are pronunced differently (kor vs korz). Trust me, I did enough paperwork to know.

See

https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-a ... l-singular

for details.

Oops! I think I may stand corrected, but the "p" is most definitely silent in both cases! It's never "corpse"!

[Hartmann]

It's all Napoleon's fault! [:D]

[Goodmongo]

Two points on Spain joining the Axis.

1) If you don't want it you better invest diplomacy against it. So at the first warning spend the MPP to reverse or stop it.
2) If Spain does change then so what. Makes for an easy invasion site for the US to land on in early 1943.

Played a game as US/UK and Spain when Axis. So I invaded Spain and then easily crept up into France.

[OxfordGuy3]

ORIGINAL: Goodmongo

Two points on Spain joining the Axis.

1) If you don't want it you better invest diplomacy against it. So at the first warning spend the MPP to reverse or stop it.
2) If Spain does change then so what. Makes for an easy invasion site for the US to land on in early 1943.

Played a game as US/UK and Spain when Axis. So I invaded Spain and then easily crept up into France.

I was thinking this too, Sweeden would be a better long-term ally for the Axis, perhaps?

[Goodmongo]

ORIGINAL: oxford_guy

I was thinking this too, Sweeden would be a better long-term ally for the Axis, perhaps?

As Germany I usually don't mess with diplomacy, but if I get a message that Sweden is moving to the Allies I sink in 2-3 chits worth ASAP.

[mavraamides]

Strange, I'm in my 3rd game as Allies and Spain only went Axis in one. I did lose Gibraltar in that one. Of course a counter invasion is also an option. You could try to push inland from Gibraltar and make a beach head that would be far more defensible or even go as far as invading in the North and drawing some forces off. But yeah, just trying to statically hold 'the rock' is a lost cause against a determined invasion.

BTW, if you do lose Gibraltar but still hold the Suez you can go the long way around Africa to get to the Med. Inconvenient but only costs you a couple more turns if you are using the double click moves. Plus the canal acts as a great escape path for any naval units that get in trouble which you may not have the MPP's to repair right away.

[BillRunacre]

Just to add that it should be hard for the Axis to get Spain via diplomacy, but not impossible, even if the UK counters, so I would be very interested in seeing any games where it seems to do it very easily.

[Goodmongo]

ORIGINAL: Bill Runacre

Just to add that it should be hard for the Axis to get Spain via diplomacy, but not impossible, even if the UK counters, so I would be very interested in seeing any games where it seems to do it very easily.

It really only happens if the AI Axis has 3-6 chits (3 Germany, 3 Italy) and the allies do nothing. 30% chance per turn for a 10-15% increase. In both games that it happened against me (I was allies) was because the AI put MPP there (I gave the AI a MPP boost) and I ignored Spain and lost NA in one game. 30% for 300 MPP can move it fast.

[Hartmann]

ORIGINAL: Goodmongo

ORIGINAL: Bill Runacre

Just to add that it should be hard for the Axis to get Spain via diplomacy, but not impossible, even if the UK counters, so I would be very interested in seeing any games where it seems to do it very easily.

It really only happens if the AI Axis has 3-6 chits (3 Germany, 3 Italy) and the allies do nothing. 30% chance per turn for a 10-15% increase. In both games that it happened against me (I was allies) was because the AI put MPP there (I gave the AI a MPP boost) and I ignored Spain and lost NA in one game. 30% for 300 MPP can move it fast.

This also explains why I have yet to see it: As Axis, I only do diplomacy to counter the Allies (like with Finland), and as the Allies, I always see to it that the Axis don't get Spain. I mean, if I see a message about Spain or Franco being "impressed", I always check the diplo tab and do something about it if necessary.

[The Land]

Interestingly, having taken Gibraltar, Spain then decided to declare war on Portugal - in roughly January 42 - which was quite handy as I already had the whole American army mid-Atlantic, and Portugal became a nice country-sized beachhead with friendly ports, while the British landed at Cadiz to re-take Gibraltar. I suspect Spain is better territory for the Allies than Italy or Greece as it's quite large and there is plenty of space for manouevre.

The AI is having a hard time defending Spain - they have are trying to be quite aggressive, but in a very piecemeal manner and without enough resource, meaning that individual counters keep getting cut off and destroyed - it's cost the Axis 6-8 units wiped out without cadre so far, and unless they move troops away from the Russian front Madrid can't be too far off falling.

Which is good, as I think I'm messing up the Eastern Front - the Germans are in Leningrad and it feels like I've hardly inflicted any casualties....

[vaalen]

ORIGINAL: Goodmongo

Two points on Spain joining the Axis.

1) If you don't want it you better invest diplomacy against it. So at the first warning spend the MPP to reverse or stop it.
2) If Spain does change then so what. Makes for an easy invasion site for the US to land on in early 1943.

Played a game as US/UK and Spain when Axis. So I invaded Spain and then easily crept up into France.

First, as the allies, I invest the maximum amount of Mpps to influence Spain as soon as possible. It does not stop them.

Second, to have Spain enter the war with this frequency is not historical, and the AI has trouble handling an allied invasion coming from Spain. In my latest game, Spain, invaded Portugal, its fellow Fascist nation, and I had a chance to get a free port in Lisbon and am fighting in Spain. In the meantime, the Axis continue to build the Atlantic Wall, in France.

[ILCK]

ORIGINAL: The Land

Interestingly, having taken Gibraltar, Spain then decided to declare war on Portugal - in roughly January 42 - which was quite handy as I already had the whole American army mid-Atlantic, and Portugal became a nice country-sized beachhead with friendly ports, while the British landed at Cadiz to re-take Gibraltar. I suspect Spain is better territory for the Allies than Italy or Greece as it's quite large and there is plenty of space for manouevre.

The AI is having a hard time defending Spain - they have are trying to be quite aggressive, but in a very piecemeal manner and without enough resource, meaning that individual counters keep getting cut off and destroyed - it's cost the Axis 6-8 units wiped out without cadre so far, and unless they move troops away from the Russian front Madrid can't be too far off falling.

Which is good, as I think I'm messing up the Eastern Front - the Germans are in Leningrad and it feels like I've hardly inflicted any casualties....

Yeah Spain is a great target for amphib assaults. Easy jest not sure the Spanish forces are worth the cost to defend. The AI sends all their main forces east and what is left are easy pickings.

[Goodmongo]

ORIGINAL: vaalen

First, as the allies, I invest the maximum amount of Mpps to influence Spain as soon as possible. It does not stop them.

Have you or I played 10,000 games? No so our evidence is anecdotal at best. It stops it every time for me and never for you. Both will be proved wrong as it will sometimes stop it and other times not.

But here is the kicker. We know for a fact that if neither side invested in diplomacy Spain would NEVER join the Axis. It simply can't as the events do not provide enough changes to do it. So it comes down to diplomacy.

UK, Germany and Italy can have 3 chits with 5% chance. USA can have 3 chits with 7%. If all sides do the max that means it's impossible for Spain to join. 36% allies vs. 30% axis. So once USA joins war if you really invest all chits then it is impossible to happen.

Now the max chance before USA joins war is 15%/turn if both Germany and Italy go max. You can do the math based on the events to see if from 1940 through end of 1941 what the real percentage chance will end up being.

But to claim that it always happened to you even when you ALWAYS go max against it doesn't mean squat. If you do this 10K times or show the math with all event variables then you might have a case.

[The Land]

Another data point - my next game as Allies, and Spain is at 81% Axis by July 1941. Luckily I've seen this coming and am just in the process of reinforcing Gibraltar and planning my attack on Tangier...