88 Flak in an anti-tank role

[morvael]

With scenario editor I attached it directly to unit. And the effects were not impressive (as can be seen above, this was against 750+ AFV).

[No idea]

ORIGINAL: morvael

With scenario editor I attached it directly to unit. And the effects were not impressive (as can be seen above, this was against 750+ AFV).

And nothing can be done to fix it? Giving them a real use in the at role cant be so unbalancing, and would make AA units equipped with 88s useful

[TheOne]

ORIGINAL: Stelteck

Trying to figure out how efficient are anti tank support units is one of my holy grail in this game.
I have completely no clue.

They work much better defending then attacking.

So as a player why not simply disband them if they are sucking up ammo/supplies/AP points?

Seem almost completely useless in the long run when you figure in cost and effect.

Hope this is just a 1.0 issue and not a 2.0 issue.

[TomaszPudlo]

ORIGINAL: No idea
Irl the 88s were the only real check the germans had against T34s and KV 1s during 1941.

Exactly.

By the way, I've tried using an 88 flak regiment as a garrison. It had zero effect. I realise that these units were not intended for garrison duty, but we're talking about 4000+ men. They should have *some* effect.

[morvael]

Unfortunately support units attached to cities do not count as garrison, only on map units do.

[EwaldvonKleist]

The standard army AA units should help in the battle with their guns, but using city air defense units is a little bit exploitive and should should not be rewarded.
The city AA units had second class (young, old, or not fully fit for front duty) personal and I suppose they also lacked motorization and training.

Were there on top of this differences among the city air defence 88mm AA gun and the one used on the fronline? Like a different mounting, making the city version more immobile?

[morvael]

I only know they (static AA guns) were feared by the infantry on approach to German cities, as described by Charles B. MacDonald in his "Company Commander: The Classic Infantry Memoir of WWII".

[TomaszPudlo]

I just discovered a weird thing. An 88mm flak regiment has 19 points construction value, which is just one point below a pioneer battalion. Is this intentional? If so, can I use them to build fortifications? If I assign a couple of them to a corps HQ, will they assist infantry in fort construction?

[morvael]

1) Construction value is high because there is a lot of men in such regiment, whereas pioneers get theirs construction value from extra multipliers for the engineers
2) No, they will not assist, only construction and engineer units may be lent by HQs to assist. But if you attach any support unit to a combat unit, it will assist.

[TomaszPudlo]

What if I assign them directly to a front-line city? Will they assist in fort construction, assuming there's a combat unit in the city?

[Stelteck]

They will dig in a fortified zone.

[morvael]

ORIGINAL: TomaszPudlo

What if I assign them directly to a front-line city? Will they assist in fort construction, assuming there's a combat unit in the city?

AA attached to cities never build forts. Anyway, fort construction happens at the end of your turn (at the start of enemy's logistics phase), not during combat.
In early WitE AA attached to cities didn't even fight if there was battle for the city, but this was changed.

[Pionpion]

So what is the best option with Flak units ? Assigning them as support to Corps or directly to units ? Do they improve CV when directly commited to units (e.g fortified zones) ?

[morvael]

I put them in Panzer Corps to get extra protection from VVS.

[EwaldvonKleist]

Why do people want to use Flak units for everything except fightin the enemy's airforce [:D]

[TomaszPudlo]

ORIGINAL: Stelteck
They will dig in a fortified zone.

Yes, they do. Thanks, Stelteck.

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist
Why do people want to use Flak units for everything except fightin the enemy's airforce

Because they are useless in any other capacity. And while being useless, they do represent significant resources, both in manpower and equipment. On top of everything, their morale is at 80. So no, they are most certainly not old men and boys, as someone suggested.

So far I've found 22 of them. Can someone please confirm that that is indeed their total number?

[No idea]

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist

Why do people want to use Flak units for everything except fightin the enemy's airforce [:D]

Well, because aa units equiped with things like Wilberwinds (a self propelled aa cannon) or 88s were used more often as anti infantry and anti tank weapons than as anti air weapons. In fact, they excelled at AT and anti infantry roles.

[morvael]

I had the impression they did it in emergency when improvising or in desperate circumstances. Obviously half of the war was in desperate circumstances That the AA troops and guns were prepared for AT fire, doesn't mean they were meant to do this regularly.

[No idea]

ORIGINAL: morvael

I had the impression they did it in emergency when improvising or in desperate circumstances. Obviously half of the war was in desperate circumstances That the AA troops and guns were prepared for AT fire, doesn't mean they were meant to do this regularly.

The 88s were widely used as at and anti infantry weapons in both fronts. In fact, during 1941 the 88s were the only real counter the germans had against t 34s and kv 1s. Given the 88s high profile they were vulnerable unless entrenched. I guess they should have a high killing rate but a high casualty rate among them also if not entrenched.

[morvael]

That's why they were used in desperate circumstances. Their high profile was a disadvantage. Of course they were the only weapons that could reliably destroy Soviet medium and heavy tanks from a longer range, so they were used.